Gracie Abrams and Cyndi Lauper Meet for Musicians on Musicians

F
orty-two years ago, Cyndi Lauper told the world that “Girls Just Want to Have Fun” on her debut single. And right now, she’s sitting in a north Brooklyn studio with Gracie Abrams and doing just that. They’re bopping their heads to Rickie Lee Jones’ “The Last Chance Texaco” and bantering as if they’ve known each other for years, even though they just met.

Lauper says Abrams’ fan-favorite ballad “Death Wish” reminds her of Jones. Before their meeting today, Abrams had never heard of “The Last Chance Texaco.” “I can’t believe I didn’t know that song, and I can’t believe you’re the person who showed it to me,” Abrams, 26, tells Lauper. “If I were to ever hear that song out in the world, I would want to leave wherever I was to go write. That piece alone makes you want to beat everything you’ve ever done.”

Abrams grew up listening to Lauper’s synth-pop in her home — it was a favorite of her mother. Both songwriters are about to embark on new chapters: Lauper recently wrapped her 69-date farewell trek and will be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame this fall (and she just announced a Las Vegas residency for next spring), while Abrams recently ended a four-year run of shows, including an opening slot on Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour in 2023 and multiple nights at New York’s Madison Square Garden. Two Grammy nominations and one hit later, she’s a full-fledged pop star plotting her next move. Abrams and Lauper dig deep for the next hour and a half, learning about each other’s history and finding common ground on how they overcame shyness and writer’s block.

Lauper: When I was listening to “I Know It Won’t Work,” I started crying.

Abrams: What? Don’t say that to me. I can’t believe you listened to any of the music.

Lauper: I listened to all of it.

Abrams: Just having grown up with your voice in the house all the
time—

Lauper: [I’m] loud, I know. Sorry.

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Abrams: Loud, thank God. There was such power in the air when your music was in the room. And it’s a funny thing — I didn’t know you personally before today, but to have an up-close seat for 10 minutes to the way that your brain works, it’s the most refreshing thing to be around. Of course, you’ve had the career that you’ve had because you’re the one making these decisions across the board.

Lauper: I had to fight. I’m scrappy.

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Abrams: I feel so grateful, as a young person. It’s so radically different now, but as I am growing up, I look at everything you’ve ever touched with … Fuck. I’ve adored it before I understood what you meant. Do you know what I mean? The more you grow into being a woman, the more you understand the significance of it.

Lauper: Oh, that’s sweet. I like the rhythm of what you’re doing in your songs, like the rapid speech.

Abrams: Thank you. I like fitting things in.

Lauper: I’m still learning. Sometimes you write something, you’re like, “Wow, look at what we did! Genius!” Then the next day you listen and go, “What the heck were you thinking?” It’s always like that, but ain’t that what we do?

Abrams: Did you ever think that you wouldn’t be able to write a song again?

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Lauper: All the time. “I suck! I know I suck!” And then I feel like, “OK, get this stuff out that sucks, and move on. Come on. It’s three or four chords. How bad can it be? You’ll find it.” I still want to learn how to play the freaking piano. Even if it’s Christmas songs, I just want to be able to go on the keys and not lose my place. And I’ve been trying to learn. I can play all my vocal exercises on the piano.

Abrams: But no chords?

Lauper: Every time I go with the chords, I’m like, “Where the hell was that chord? OK, two black …”

Abrams: That’s fascinating to me.

Cyndi: Jacket and pants by Noir Kei Ninomiya. Camisole by Libertine. Shoes Vintage Marc Jacobs via the Lido Archive. Gracie: Dress: Vintage Prada. Jewelry by Chanel. Tights by Wolford. Shoes by Miu Miu.

Lauper: Listen, I can’t even read a regular book without a piece of white paper underneath every line. I don’t know if that’s because I got hit in the head with a lot of erasers. I have no idea. I went to Catholic school, but we had a lot of political differences, so I was asked to leave.

Abrams: You were asked to leave?

Lauper: Twice, once in third grade, and then again in fourth grade.

Abrams: For talking?

Lauper: Oh, no, no, no. For talking back.

Abrams: They probably just didn’t want to hear everything that you were right about. Don’t infect the minds.… How do you feel being off tour now? We just finished a week ago as well, and it’s been a straight four-year run, pretty much.

Lauper: The first time, it’s a little shocking, ain’t it?

Abrams: The whole thing is constantly shocking. I also find the dopamine-hit piece of it all interesting to contend with, when you stop for even two days. My greatest takeaway from touring, especially over the past year, because I was feeling kind of existential about it right after the election and everything was on fire … it turns out the best and highest use of my being here on this planet is for the two hours a night that people feel they can come and have some place to, at the very least, be around strangers who are expressing anything loudly. We don’t even really get that these days.

Lauper: It’s a community. And that is where we win as people.… What was the first song you wrote?

Abrams: The first song I wrote was about losing my journal that mattered more than anything to me. And it was about feeling deeply disappointed in my lack of responsibility around something that meant so much. It’s a loss.

Lauper: When was that?

Abrams: I was, like, eight years old.

Lauper: Yeah, OK. I mean …

Abrams: [Laughs.] Like, a real significant [song]?

Lauper: When you stepped forward and became Gracie Abrams.

Abrams: The songs I was writing at home, the theme was always about feeling a little bit stuck, and not really knowing how to articulate that to other people. So, I felt generally better when I would not verbalize to another person, but instead just write, write, write. And a lot of the songs that I felt drawn to when I was younger, there was always, in it, some kind of tension between … place? If that makes sense? “River” by Joni [Mitchell] is a great example.

That to me felt like a North Star way to articulate a desperation to get somewhere. Those were the songs that I started feeling compelled to write initially. But I don’t know. Today, I’m in an interesting place psychologically about it all. Hearing you talk about the whole point of writing and reflecting on the world that we’re living in, I feel called more than ever to … that’s what I’m writing about these days.

Lauper: I’m trying to write a song now for somebody, and I’m so frustrated. For me, the best is always a trance-like state where it’s peaceful, and that’s where it comes out.

Abrams: Yeah. I feel like “Death Wish” is a good example of that. I don’t really remember writing it. It was the kind of thing where the song was done and then you’re like, “Oh, that feels like we just pulled it out of thin air.” It’s almost like you black out for a second and then come back, and the song’s there, which is bizarre. I love that feeling. That is the drug.

Lauper: Kind of addictive, yeah.

Abrams: And then when there’s space between experiencing it, I always get into this cycle where I’m like, I feel like I’m never, ever, ever going to be able to get back to that thing.

Lauper: You always feel like that.

Abrams: Yeah, exactly.

Lauper: [So] your father was an artist and your mother was a Cyndi fan.

Abrams: [Laughs.] Yeah, and that’s the entire identity. I was very private about the fact that I was playing music—

Lauper: You didn’t perform for your parents?

Abrams: No, never. I wanted nothing to do with any of that. I just felt like my body shut down if I was playing or singing something I wrote. And I would hear someone walk by, I would stop. Because it felt like the opposite of what I know to be powerful now, which is the invitation for people to just be connected to something, period. Obviously, I wasn’t thinking like that at all. I was thinking selfishly: “This is something that makes me feel better. It makes me feel like I can process this stuff in my head, but it’s not for anyone else.”

Lauper: Wow. Now, you’re a performer.

Abrams: So that was an interesting thing to get over. But it was so scary, and I loved being wrong about it. I had never played a show ever, prior to Covid. So after the pandemic was the first show I ever played, and the night before, I was awake the whole night throwing up because I was so anxious about it, so scared. And then I was just immediately wrong because it’s—

Lauper: It’s fun.

“I had to fight. I’m scrappy.”

Cyndi Lauper

Abrams: It’s fun. I felt very filled up by the fact that you know other people are having a good time.

Lauper: Where’d you perform?

Abrams: In Orange County [California] at the Observatory. It was like 100 people. It was the tiniest thing.

Lauper: But the Observatory, that’s pretty cool, because it’s outer-space stuff. So what’d you wear?

Abrams: I wore a gray dress and blue Converse, and I didn’t brush my hair and it was—

Lauper: Was that like a big “Fuck you”?

Abrams: I think I was so paralyzed with fear that I didn’t quite consider all these parts, but it was—

Lauper: Oh, because you were a little grunge there. You did a whole grunge thing.

Abrams: I suppose. Maybe not so consciously, I was just like, “What’s something I wear on a daily basis?”

Lauper: Gray, like a spacesuit.

Abrams: I like that interpretation of it. I’m going to tell people that that was what I was thinking.

Lauper: Yeah. Hell with it.… What was [your] first hit?

Abrams: I have one song [“That’s So True”] that I think would fall under that category. I wrote it with my friend Audrey [Hobert], who is such a smart writer.

Lauper: I saw her with you onstage.

Abrams: But it’s a song that, to us, in real time, felt like a bit of a joke in a great way. It made us laugh so hard. Working with her was a surprise for our friendship, because we didn’t know that we would ever do that together. It just came about.…When you get to take time, if you’re not writing a song or if you’re not on tour, what’s—

Lauper: I clean the house, and while I’m cleaning, all this stuff comes to me. I don’t know why.

Abrams: Because you’re in motion, maybe.

Lauper: Mother used to say to “please clean up the room,” and then I’d sit and play guitar. I had the Beatles’ pictures all around, each one on each wall.… My teachers used to say you have to draw at least one hour every day. It’s interesting to hear how different people go about their work.

Abrams: You said that you’re currently trying to write a song for someone. How does that go down?

Lauper: Well, I’ve been doing this stuff for [Broadway] shows, and it’s easier and it’s harder, because it’s never going to be your voice. So you got to find out what the hell their jam is. And then you got to find out what register they sing in. You got to make it sound like it came out of their head. Kinky Boots [the musical; music and lyrics by Lauper] was different.

Abrams: How long did that take?

Lauper: Started in 2008, and it opened 2013. It was quick. This one’s been at least 10 years. But the project is worth it, because it’s worth examining the history of it, and where we are now. It’s the musical adaptation of Working Girl.

Abrams: That’s going to be so unbelievable when it’s out in the world.

“[I’m] more and more grateful to the fact that I was raised in a house where your music was playing.”

Gracie Abrams

Lauper: I hope so. It’s going to La Jolla [California] now, and we’ll see. What works in La Jolla might not work in New York, but at least you get to see it.

Abrams: Totally.

Lauper: It’ll be fine. I’ll just keep working until it’s right. But listen, I’m fascinated by what you’re talking about. And I was told you wanted to talk to me. When I listened to your work, I was like, “Well, this is really interesting.”

Abrams: I just was really beyond …

Lauper: Well, because your mother tortured you with me, so …

Abrams: Thank God!

Lauper: It’s handed down. I know.

Abrams: But that makes it mean everything. I feel that way the older I get. [I’m] more and more grateful to the fact that I was raised in a house where your music was playing. Now, separately, as my own person and the life that I … Well, I’m able to apply your songs to my personal experiences. Whereas before, I think the reason, obviously, that my mom was so drawn to your music is because she had a lifetime of instances where you soundtracked.

Lauper: Well, I’m surprised you weren’t dancing around.

Abrams: I was very shy. I’m still working through all of this, which is maybe felt [laughs]. But I feel like the horizons [have] broadened a bit the more that I learn.

Lauper: You’ve been out on tour for four years. Holy cow.

Abrams: Now that the album cycle is over, the next album isn’t made, I don’t know what I want to say yet. I feel really—

Lauper: Well, take a breath.

Abrams: But it’s really wild to hear you talk about the way that you approach all of what you do. Because I think that there’s such conviction in everything. It’s actually having something to say, not just making noise for the sake of making noise.

Lauper: But you’re not doing that.

Abrams: Well, I hope not.

Lauper: No, you’re not. Listen, [you mentioned] a song where you had the music first, and then you sang. The repetitiveness and the rhythm of those words — that’s really hard to do, and it was terrific.

Abrams: Thank you.

Lauper: You got your whole life now. It’s going to be really great. You’re going to make it. You are going to write the book.

Gracie Abrams and Cyndi Lauper Meet for Musicians on Musicians

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