SARAH FERGUSON, PRESENTER: Prime Minister Marape, welcome to 7.30.

JAMES MARAPE, PNG PRIME MINISTER:  Thank you.

SARAH FERGUSON:  PNG already has defence agreements with Australia. Why do you need to elevate it to a mutual defence treaty?

JAMES MARAPE:  It’s a natural progress from where we have come from. Two years after independence in 1977, we signed a status of force agreement. 

Lately, in 2013, we signed a defence cooperation agreement. And the defence treaty is just a natural progression from where we’ve come from, bearing that we have many things in similarity and the differences. So a natural progression from where we’ve started.

SARAH FERGUSON:  As many as 10,000 PNG troops to be incorporated into the Australian army. Could it be even more than that 10,000 number?

JAMES MARAPE:  It’s subject to the working of the treaty. If Australia needs personnels to be recruited, Papua New Guinea has a youthful population. Most of them complete grade 12 and subject to the due processes. 

Papua New Guineans can be enlisted into Australian Defence Force. They will not be reporting to the PNG Defence Force commander. They will be Australian Defence Force personnels. Of course, in PNG ourself, it is in our interest to build a defence force to a 7,000-man force that is strong in our land, sea, and air capacities.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Did Chinese officials make any direct or indirect threats as to the consequences if you signed this treaty with Australia?

JAMES MARAPE:  Not at all and I want to comment Chinese who gave us full respect to our sovereign interests, and they understand very clearly where we’ve come from. In 1975, prior to September 16, we were part of the Australian sovereignty. 

Our shared history speaks volume, and so they clearly understand where we are going, and we’ve been transparent to not just Chinese, but all nations we have foreign relationship with or security relationship with.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Now, this agreement clearly serves Australia’s military interests that, as we know, are explicitly focused on the threat from China. How does that serve PNG’s interests?

JAMES MARAPE:  PNG’s interests come in the range of spin-offs. that comes under the umbrella of this treaty. Not just the hands and boots and uniforms conversation, but the military hardwares, the military softwares.

So there’s a range of beneficiary benefits that PNG Defence Force gets as a result of this.

SARAH FERGUSON:  But presumably, Prime Minister, you could get all of those benefits from the defence arrangements that you already had. This treaty is different because it commits you to act in the face of a common danger. That’s the question.

That’s clearly in Australia’s interest because PNG provides a useful geographic location as well as all the other benefits. But what does PNG get from Australia’s interest vis-a-vis a heavily militarizing China.

JAMES MARAPE:  As I said earlier, PNG stands beneficial to the capacity built of our own defence force. The construct of this treaty is a construct in peacetime for peace. This is not a construct to create war. It is rather a construct to establish peace.

SARAH FERGUSON:  And yet, at the same time, the Australian Defence Review, Strategic Review recently made absolutely clear and explicit that it was being put together with an eye to the rapid militarisation of the Chinese military.

Do you see the militarisation of China in the same way as Australia does?

JAMES MARAPE:  Each nation, whether it’s Australia or China or any nation for the matter, have their own strategic views in terms of their military and it’s entirely up to China or Australia to build up the Defence Force properly.

SARAH FERGUSON: Except that now you’re involved in a mutual defence treaty where you would join Australia if it came under attack.

JAMES MARAPE:  There is a provision in the agreement that when subject to whenever attacks does take place, if it does happen, there is an ability for PNG Defence Force Commander and Australia Defence Force Commander to engage in making critical military decisions at that point in time.

SARAH FERGUSON:  So you are not actually necessarily committing to join a conflict with China that Australia was involved in.

JAMES MARAPE:  What does PNG have to offer right now? As a question, I would be letting even my country know. At the moment, our military capacity is not as a space where we are an active participant.

We are contributing to subject conflict and so it is in our interest to work to build, and I don’t necessarily see China as an enemy.

China is a good-relationship nation, even with Australia, with PNG. We trade with China. We do business with China and so there’s no need for an alarmist approach in this conversation.

SARAH FERGUSON:  But if it’s a realistic question as opposed to an alarmist one, obviously the Australian Defence Force, the Australian defence establishment, has considered the possibility of war with China. We know the Americans have considered that possibility.

So what does PNG…

JAMES MARAPE:  I don’t have the mindset of, I don’t have the mindset of Australia Defence Force to speak what Australian Defence Force.

SARAH FERGUSON:  But the question is actually what PNG would do in those circumstances.

Let me put it like this, Prime Minister, is it possible that PNG could make a decision not to be involved in the conflict Australia was engaged in with China?

JAMES MARAPE:  There’s a high possibility when an event happens. PNG has a sovereignty in itself. This constructive treaty was constructed within the fullest ambit of respect and sovereignties in making their own calls.

SARAH FERGUSON:  So if you sign a treaty that is, that talks about facing a common danger, is that exactly what a common danger is?

JAMES MARAPE: Likewise, Australia, PNG was engaged in a construct. We would not expect, in a conflict, we don’t expect Australia to drop everything else and run to us.

The treaty has provisions where there’ll be consultations, they’ll be engaged. There’s a finality of making call that rests with respect to Defence Force commanders.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Will the Australian Defence Force eventually be able to base troops in Papua New Guinea?

JAMES MARAPE:  It will be PNG troops in PNG. We’re building our own PNG Defence Force.

Our own PNG Defence Force will have work conditions on par with Australian Defence Force, but the interoperability, PNG Defence Force coming down using Australian facilities, Australian Defence Force going up there using PNG Defence Force facilities, part of the construct of these arrangements.

SARAH FERGUSON:  But actual ADF bases in PNG, is that a possibility?

JAMES MARAPE:  Not at this stage, not at this stage. 

SARAH FERGUSON:  But possibly in the future.

JAMES MARAPE:  Possibly, but right now, our first and Australian government, and Canberra knows very well our interest to build 7,000-man defence force. That includes new battalions, our sea wing, our air wing, our land wing, as well as our technology that assists our defence to be capable defence force up there.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Have you discussed with anybody in the Australian Defence establishment or political establishment the possible locations of those bases?

JAMES MARAPE:  Not at this stage. It’s something that our, there’s an ongoing annual dialogue between our defence ministers and our civil servants and our forces. It is a discussion that they will have to progress.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Just on the other side of the equation, is Australia committing to assisting Papua New Guinea in the event of cross-border raids between West Papua and Papua New Guinea.

JAMES MARAPE:  Not so much. We have a healthy dialogue with Indonesia. We have a healthy dialogue with Indonesia.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Did you discuss the treaty with the Indonesians before you signed?

JAMES MARAPE:  Not at all. It’s a matter between PNG and Australia.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Will they be concerned?

JAMES MARAPE:  We will be informing Indonesia and many other nations on the finer details of these treaties. I’m 100 per cent certain Indonesia will not be offended.

They clearly understand where our need is. It is also in our shared interest that we have clearly, you know, Indonesia and PNG has 800 kilometres of land borders.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Do you anticipate that the ADF could be involved on that border in the future?

JAMES MARAPE:  The said use of facilities is something that, you know, we’ve agreed on in this.

SARAH FERGUSON:  You mean in the proximity to the border?

Could you, sorry, to be clear, do you contemplate the presence of Australian Defence Force on the border with West Papua?

JAMES MARAPE:  It’s not West Papua in the context. It’s a PNG-Indonesia border, so … 

SARAH FERGUSON:  And do you anticipate seeing Australian soldiers on that border?

JAMES MARAPE:  In terms of their operations with PNG, will be in PNG, as much as PNG will be in Australia.

And whether it’s in the border or in PNG, it’s PNG side, Australia will be there also.

SARAH FERGUSON:  And do you think that Indonesia would have concerns about Australian forces being in the proximity of that border?

JAMES MARAPE:  I can’t speak… 

SARAH FERGUSON:  It’s a very sensitive 

JAMES MARAPE:  I can’t speak for Indonesia. I can’t speak for Indonesia.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Will you be discussing that? Will your defence or foreign ministers be discussing that with the Indonesians?

JAMES MARAPE:  They’re really partners with us and part of the ongoing dialogue with Indonesia, we have our own sort of security relations with them.

Those matters will be discussed also.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Prime Minister Arape, thank you very much indeed.

JAMES MARAPE:  Thank you very much.