CLEVELAND, Ohio \u2014 In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins break down what to make of Jarrett Allen\u2019s shrinking role in fourth quarters \u2014 including whether it signals a bigger shift in the organization\u2019s plans.<\/p>\n
Takeaways:<\/p>\n
Q: Despite a winning record, what is the overall sentiment regarding the Cavaliers\u2019 performance, especially after their win against a Bucks team that lost Giannis Antetokounmpo mid-game?<\/p>\n
A: The consensus is that something feels \u201coff\u201d and \u201cclunky\u201d with the team, a sentiment reportedly shared by acting coach Kenny Atkinson. Despite being on a 55-win pace, the recent victories are viewed as more a result of opponents\u2019 misfortunes\u2014like Antetokounmpo\u2019s injury\u2014than the Cavaliers\u2019 own brilliance. The speakers note that while the team has the talent and depth to accumulate regular-season wins, they are not consistently playing good basketball or meeting the high expectations set for them. There is a sense that the team is just trying to \u201cget through\u201d the regular season, a concerning approach for a team that has not yet achieved significant playoff success.<\/p>\n
Q: The podcast heavily emphasized Evan Mobley\u2019s development as crucial for the team\u2019s championship hopes. What are the primary concerns about his current performance?<\/p>\n
A: The main concern is Evan Mobley\u2019s inconsistent aggression and fluctuating role on offense. After starting the season with an aggressive mindset, he has recently had games with single-digit shot attempts, a significant drop-off. The speakers speculate that the coaching staff may have pulled back on empowering him to be a primary scorer in favor of more \u201coptimal\u201d efficiency, leading to confusion and hesitation in his game. While his assist numbers can be positive, they are often paired with a high number of turnovers. The unequivocal conclusion is that the Cavaliers cannot reach legitimate championship contention with the passive version of Mobley seen in recent games.<\/p>\n
Q: Jarrett Allen is considered part of the \u201ccore four,\u201d but his role has diminished, particularly in fourth quarters. What does this signal about his future with the team?<\/p>\n
A: There is a significant disconnect between Jarrett Allen\u2019s stated importance to the organization and his actual usage. He has become a spectator in fourth quarters, with Coach Atkinson often opting for smaller lineups or even other big men like Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin and Thomas Bryant. This trend fuels speculation that Allen\u2019s future in Cleveland is uncertain. The speakers argue that if the team doesn\u2019t treat him like a core player, his trade value may diminish. The situation is reaching a point where the front office might be more open to trading him for a rotation-level player at another position, especially if he continues to be sidelined during crucial game moments.<\/p>\n
Q: With Jarrett Allen\u2019s future in question, how realistic is a major in-season trade, such as for a player like Anthony Davis?<\/p>\n
A: A major trade for a high-salaried player like Anthony Davis is considered \u201cvery, very difficult\u201d and highly unlikely during the season. The primary obstacle is the Cavaliers\u2019 status as a second-apron luxury tax team, which imposes severe restrictions on their ability to aggregate salaries in a trade. Any potential in-season move would likely involve a more modest target\u2014a sixth or seventh man making around $20 million annually. A significant roster shake-up is seen as more probable in the offseason, after the team has a clearer picture of this season\u2019s outcome and has more flexibility.<\/p>\n
Q: What unique value are undrafted and late-round players like Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin and Craig Porter Jr. bringing to the Cavaliers?<\/p>\n
A: Players like Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin and Craig Porter Jr. bring a distinct energy, grittiness, and hunger that contrasts with the more skill-based identity of the team\u2019s core. Tomlin, in particular, stands out for his relentless activity and disruptive presence, which makes him \u201cannoying as hell to play against.\u201d This high motor is a quality nobody else on the roster matches. These players, who have had to fight for their NBA careers, provide a \u201cfearlessness\u201d and a different dimension to the team. Their emergence not only gives Atkinson more lineup flexibility but also serves as a valuable internal pipeline for developing talent under restrictive salary cap conditions.<\/p>\n
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Subscribe and listen on <\/a>Apple Podcasts<\/a> or Spotify<\/a>.<\/p>\n The video version of the podcast is on YouTube<\/a> as well.<\/p>\n Transcript<\/p>\n NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.<\/p>\n Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I\u2019m your host, Ethan Sands, and I\u2019m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast and it feels like it\u2019s been a minute since we had the three headed goat on the podcast. Chris Fedor, Jimmy Watkins joining me after the Cleveland Cavaliers latest win over The Milwaukee Bucks. 118-106. And guys, I don\u2019t necessarily want to start on a sour note, but I think we have to be real about tonight\u2019s contest. The game shifted when Giannis Antetokounmpo went out for the Milwaukee Bucks with a left groin strain and was not able to play in the entirety of the second half. Guys, I know this cast team is trying to find ways to win, fight through adversity and get their own flow and rhythm going on their own, but this was a major advantage that they had. Do you think that they exploited it to the standard that they wanted to in that second half?<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: No, I don\u2019t think so. I think Kenny Atkinson was looking around at all the guys that the Bucks were using and saying to himself, how the hell Is this a four point game going into the fourth quarter when Giannis has only played 13 minutes? You could sense it in Kenny Atkinson talking about this game. Post game, he didn\u2019t feel great about the team\u2019s performance. He used the word clunky. He used the word slog. First it was slug, but that\u2019s a bad word for a coach to use in Cleveland. Harkens back bad memories of the John Beeline era. Nobody wants that. I mean, you got some rough PTSD when you talk about the Jock Beeline era. So you could just tell from Kenny, you know, he didn\u2019t want to. He didn\u2019t want to be overly critical of the team\u2019s play and he didn\u2019t want to pile on the Bucks other players. But he was basically like, are you kidding me? We\u2019re supposed to be one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference and it\u2019s a four point game going to the fourth quarter against that team without Giannis. Like why? What is going on with us? Like what aren\u2019t we doing? And. And that\u2019s something that Kenny has been talking about, I think, for the last week, week and a half. He\u2019s focused on the how and the why of things, not the what the end result\u2019s going to be. The end result. As he said it after the game, the Cavs have so much talent, they have so much depth that they\u2019re going to pile up a bunch of wins. Just organically but does that mean that they\u2019re playing good basketball? Does that mean that this is the team that Kenny Atkinson expected to have coming into the season? Does this mean that this is the version of Evan Mobley that Kenny Atkinson and this entire organization has been expecting? No. If you talk to any of the players in the locker room, they will all admit it. And I think it\u2019s important that they\u2019ll admit it because some teams are just going to get blinded by wins and losses. But this team isn\u2019t. Talk to anybody in that locker room, they\u2019ll say that something is off with this team. And I think, I think it\u2019s true. I think something is off with this team. Their last two victories have been more about who the other team didn\u2019t have or what the other team was dealing with as opposed to their own brilliance that they showed.<\/p>\n Jimmy Watkins: That being said, they are still on like a 55 win pace.<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: Yeah, of course.<\/p>\n Jimmy Watkins: And I think that\u2019s mostly to Chris\u2019s point. It\u2019s mostly a thank God for the Eastern Conference 55 win pace. Like I was going through the standings. CAVs have a plus 4.7 point differential, which is tied with the Toronto Raptors, by the way. Wow. Toronto Raptors or third best in the Eastern Conference. There are five teams in the west that have a point differential at least a point and a half better than that. Jordan Otts, Phoenix Suns are around that same range. Plus 4.7 is basically a. You\u2019re just out of the play in point differential in the Western Conference. In the east, you\u2019re cruising. We knew this was coming this year. Right. We knew this was a big challenge for the players from an internal motivation standpoint for. From Kenny Atkinson. How do you push these guys through all this? What happened to this narrative about the regular season matters? Doesn\u2019t seem like that\u2019s how the players are treating it. I think they\u2019re just trying to. It seems like they\u2019re just trying to get through it, by and large. And I do think we saw a glimpse of it. I do think this team would look a little bit different at least on offense with Darius Garland in the fold. But there, there are more things happening here than that. I just think like tonight Kenny was using the word focus. What happened to the focus? Feel like we had lapses of focus against last week against the Raptors. They just didn\u2019t have any juice.<\/p>\n Jimmy Watkins: Guys, we\u2019re 15 games into the season. Like it\u2019s going to be a long season if we\u2019re already here. I do think getting Darius back, getting Max back. Even whenever Jaylon Tyson comes bouncing back from this concussion, he. He\u2019s another one of those guys you guys were talking about in the last, last episode, about how Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin, like, when you\u2019re playing with Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin, you better start playing harder because he\u2019s going to make you look bad otherwise. And I agree that it shouldn\u2019t be that way, but it is. Jaylon Tyson\u2019s another one of those guys. I think those guys will bring little jolts individually. And then when the Cavs are all whole, there will be this. At least in the first, like, month and a half, two months, there will be this like, okay, we have everybody now. Let\u2019s get back to what we do. But by the way, at the end of that, there\u2019s going to be like another 25 games. The regular season\u2019s just super long. And I will continue to say I really don\u2019t like the Cavs taking this approach when they haven\u2019t really done anything in the playoffs. This sort of switch flipping thing is reserved for teams who have accomplished things in the NBA. Fans don\u2019t like it. Fans are frustrated with some of the key pieces of the season. I threw out just like a fun little Evan Mobley statistical subtext compared to Giannis during the game. Everyone was just like, don\u2019t compare him to Giannis. That\u2019s not even close. It\u2019s like, you know what? Right now, I can\u2019t argue with you. It\u2019s just the complete opposite of last regular season. And there are, there can be benefits to the Cavs not starting so hot. They certainly see it that way. But, like, from a viewership perspective right now, if you\u2019re a fan, the Cavs are not a good hang.<\/p>\n Ethan Sands: So, guys, I, I think there\u2019s a lot there, right? We talked a lot about the intensity that the Cavs are playing with or the lack thereof, and also just the standard that they\u2019re trying to set. Last year, the key word, the buzzword for this team was setting habits in the regular season that they can then execute in the postseason. And I think they\u2019re still trying to do that. But there\u2019s also a conversation about where this Cavs team wants to be and in the identity crisis that they\u2019re trying to alleviate currently. And Jimmy, you mentioned it there, some things are going to get better when Darius Garland and Max Trooce get back. Some things also could get worse because we talked about how this Cavs team is better suited personnel wise, to have the defensive principles that they want to have. Well, then you add in Darius Garland alongside some other attackable defenders, some things might change. And we go back to what these players said at the end of the season, press conferences last year where they were like this 82 game season doesn\u2019t necessarily matter, yada yada yada. But Donovan Mitchell tonight did say that they want to play every night, every game, every minute, with a standard level of energy and intensity. And I think that part is important for this team throughout the regular season as a whole in particular. And obviously Donovan Mitchell likes to lead by example more than anything else. And he had 37 points on 22 field goal attempts tonight, four of eight from the three point line. He had 25 points in that first half alone. And then obviously Sam Merrow as well kicked it up in the gear in the second half. He had 20 points in the overall contest, 7 of 10 from the field, 6 of 9 from the three point range. I just think there are positives to take away, but there are also things where this team is kind of being controversial in itself. When some players are saying it doesn\u2019t matter and some players are saying that they want to give it their all every time they\u2019re on the floor. And I think they need to find the balance or simply get on the same page.<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: Yeah, I don\u2019t know that they know how they want to present this because I don\u2019t think they just want to come outright and say, although some guys have already said this, the regular season doesn\u2019t matter because, Jimmy, you mentioned it, they haven\u2019t accomplished anything. They can\u2019t be like LeBron\u2019s Cavs, they can\u2019t be like the Heatles, they can\u2019t be like the Golden State warriors where they just snub their nose at the regular season because they haven\u2019t accomplished. They haven\u2019t reached that level where they can do that. And the other thing, and I was talking to somebody about this scout in the NBA before tonight\u2019s game and it\u2019s a strange thing because you understand what\u2019s missing right now. Darius Garland just gives this team a different offensive ceiling. And Max Stru for all of his playoff shortcomings, for all of the questions that people have about him, should he start, should he come off the bench, whatever. Since the minute he got here, he has been an impact player, player. And he has brought something to this starting lineup and something to this team as a whole. And you\u2019re feeling those absences, right? So you can\u2019t just downplay those things because they are real. And all of a sudden, you know, Jaylon Tyson is playing the fifth most minutes of anybody and that wasn\u2019t the plan. And Craig Porter Jr. Is playing like the seventh most minutes of anybody, and that wasn\u2019t the plan. And Sam Merrill, there\u2019s more asked of him and he\u2019s playing more minutes than at any point in his entire career. And he\u2019s been really, really good, by the way. But like, these guys are thrust into roles that on one hand they may not be ready for, on another hand they haven\u2019t been in before. So you can\u2019t just overlook those things, right? But at the same time, like, even though you admit that those things are missing and those things are playing a part in this, has this team really earned the benefit of the doubt where you can sit there and say, well, when those guys come back, everything\u2019s fine. Like the offense is going to be great again, the defense is going to be on point again, and like the Cavs are going to be a team that challenges the Denver Nuggets and the Oklahoma City Thunder and anybody else that you think is a legitimate title contender. That\u2019s where I think it becomes really, really difficult. Because on one hand you want to give them the benefit of the doubt because you know what\u2019s missing and the impact of those absences. On the other hand, they haven\u2019t earned the benefit of the doubt. They\u2019re still trying to get to that point where you can just say, ah, they\u2019ll flip a switch when the playoffs come around or eh, they\u2019ll flip a switch when March hits, or something along those lines. And I just don\u2019t think that this team has earned that yet. The other thing that I think makes this complicated is that we talked about this the other night on the podcast. Everything with this organization is through the lens of where is Evan Mobley? And is, is he still on the same timeline, the same contention timeline as Donovan Mitchell and this team? Like, if this team has legitimate championship aspirations, it\u2019s not about winning a bunch of games in the regular season. Legitimate championship aspirations. Can that happen with the version of Evan Mobley that the Cavs have gotten in the first 15 games? The answer is no. Unequivocally, no. So if you\u2019re sitting here and you\u2019re trying to analyze that and you\u2019re looking at the big picture thing and Evan plays the way that he has in the first 15 games where he doesn\u2019t look like second team, all NBA, he doesn\u2019t look like an all Star, you\u2019re kind of looking at this season saying, well, what\u2019s the point? Like if Evan can\u2019t get there. This team can\u2019t get there. If Evan can\u2019t get there, then nothing else matters. But it doesn\u2019t matter that Sam Merrill is shooting lights out from three point range. It doesn\u2019t matter that Craig Porter Jr. Is providing all this effort and picking up full court and providing a boost, coming off the bench and filling those backup point guard minutes. And Jalen Tyson has looked really, really good when he\u2019s been healthy in his second year. Does anything matter if Evan Mobley doesn\u2019t get back to the level that he showed last year or even beyond that? The way that the Cavs were talking about him was mvp. The way that the Cavs were talking about it was top five player in the league, top 10 player in the league. And there just haven\u2019t been too many signs of that. So it\u2019s really, really difficult to wrap your arms around all of that combined, and it\u2019s really, really difficult to figure out what you\u2019re supposed to do with all of that information.<\/p>\n Jimmy Watkins: This is the second time in a week where Evan Mobley has finished the game with single digit shot attempts that happened nine times all of last season. Help. Help me out here. Like, what\u2019s going on? What\u2019s going on? This is. It\u2019s supposed to be the opposite. And it kind of started the opposite. Ethan and I had a version of this conversation after the Raptors game last week. I was cool. Like, Evan Mobley this time last week was averaging like 20 points a game that\u2019s gone down. I don\u2019t really care about the points. I care about the shot attempts, how I\u2019m seeing him attack the basket. Evan Mobley\u2019s efficiency numbers have actually improved over the last week. I don\u2019t care. I liked him better when they were lower. I did. I liked what we were talking about. We called them mistakes of aggression.<\/p>\n Jimmy Watkins: I like Evan Mobley missing open players because he was trying to get his own. I liked that. Now it seems to me that the Cavs, and I\u2019m just guessing here, Chris, fill me in. It seems to me like the Cavs started Evan Mobley doing one thing, realized because they\u2019re so. You know how much the Cavs love their numbers. Realized. Hmm. This isn\u2019t optimal. And then were like, hey, remember what we were telling you to do before? Nevermind. And then Evan Mobley gets the ball in a game and he\u2019s like<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: What am I supposed to do?<\/p>\n Jimmy Watkins: What am I supposed to do again? Like, I got two people. I got two people telling me different things in, in my head. Problem is they\u2019re the same person. They\u2019re just telling me different things. We just need to pick a lane here without a Mobley, and I. I was interested to keep going down. Like, what\u2019s on the other side of those efficiency dips. We talked about this last year. This is what I was worried about last year when Kenny Atkinson first took over. Okay, you want to empower Evan Mobley. It\u2019s going to be ugly sometimes. Do you have the stomach for that?<\/p>\n Jimmy Watkins: Does Donovan Mitchell have the stomach for that The answer through 15 games of year two, no. Emphatic no to the point where, like, now you\u2019re. It\u2019s still early. And I still think that on the other end of this, at some point this year, there\u2019s going to be an awesome Evan Mobley stretch. But right now, like, it almost feels like you\u2019re stunning his development.<\/p>\n Ethan Sands: I think that\u2019s all interesting because obviously he didn\u2019t have the offensive scoring performance that we wanted or expected from Evan Mobley, particularly with Giannis Antetokounmpo in the locker room. But to me, there were positives when it came to his creation and being an offensive focal point and still being able to distribute and start an offense. And I think that was, to Jimmy\u2019s point, what the Cavs wanted him to do at the beginning of the season. And they\u2019re kind of changing that. And you have to see him in like the half, roll him in the elbow, positioning, trying to construct offense from those positions on the floor and being successful, but also have stints where he would put the ball on the floor and simply lose it because he was trying to do too much or help side guard would come and take the ball away. Right. So you end the game with six assists, which is good for a seven footer, but you also end the game with six turnovers. So there\u2019s this give and take that we\u2019ve been, which should never happen. Most big men don\u2019t make enough decisions to make six turnovers in a game.<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: Unless you\u2019re Draymond Green and you\u2019re the hub of an offense and you\u2019re passing so much throughout the course of the game. Yeah. Or like bam. I guess Bam kind of has that role or did have that role in Miami. I agree. Like, 6 was pretty alarming, honestly.<\/p>\n Ethan Sands: I agree. And that\u2019s why I\u2019m saying there\u2019s like this give and take with Evan Mobley and his development. And obviously, if you ask Kenny Atkinson, he\u2019s going to continue to say there\u2019s these Growing pains that we were expecting development. And Chris blatantly asked Kenny Atkinson today about switching the rotation to incorporate Donovan and Evan again. And we\u2019ve had this conversation on the podcast for the last week or so now, and Kenny said, well, you kind of had to go away from that because Darius wasn\u2019t in the lineup. So you had to split up Donovan and Evan to be, as Jimmy put it, most optimal when it comes to the offensive focal of this team. But also understanding that you have to just be able to maneuver the rotation to what is helping the Cavs in any given matchup or in any given game. And I think there\u2019s definitely quite a questions that have not been answered. And there\u2019s also questions about the rotations that Kenny Adinson has made early on in the season. But again, that\u2019s this experimentation period that we\u2019ve been talking about, and now this team is starting to make decisions and make changes to try and figure out what is working best. And Chris, you mentioned it to the subtexters today. It felt like the Cavs were going away from Larry Naz Jr. Who has struggled, and instead inserted Thomas Bryant, Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin. Guys getting more minutes on the back end of the rotation and seeing how they\u2019re going to be able to impact. What have you seen from the beginning portion of the season and how Kenny Atkinson has maneuvered this rotation. And obviously, as he said, at some point today, they are in no point stuck in what they\u2019re doing. Rotation wise. They\u2019re still figuring things out as they go.<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: Yeah, I think the. The term that I would use is fluid. I. I think a lot of these things are fluid, and I think Kenny\u2019s trying to figure them out. Okay, what\u2019s it look like when Darius is back, when Darius isn\u2019t out there? And I think the truth is, beyond the top seven, they\u2019re kind of interchangeable because Dean has a place. I know fans get on Dean all the time, but Mr. Plus Minus has led the team in plus minus for the last two games, eight rebounds tonight, I\u2019m telling you, like, he does winning things for this team, he does things for this team that they need that allow him to, like, blend into a variety of different lineups. And I think that\u2019s part of the reason why Kenny keeps defaulting to Dean. All right, do I need him to play small forward? Okay, do I need a smaller big? All right, do I need somebody who\u2019s going to go out there and rebound? All right, do I need somebody who\u2019s going to go out there and space the floor. All right, like Dean can do a lot of different things that are helpful to this team and it\u2019s clear that, that Kenny believes in him and trusts him. He comes in the first substitution right alongside Lonzo Ball. So obviously that, that could change when, when Max is back and he\u2019s going to carve into some of those minutes and Jaylon Tyson\u2019s going to be an option as well. But you know, for now we\u2019re talking about this team right now. The top seven are there and they\u2019re going to get their minutes, they\u2019re going to get their playing time. And then beyond that, I do think that it\u2019s fluid, I do think it\u2019s interchangeable. Look, when Darius Garland\u2019s not available, that means Craig Porter Jr. Has a place. He\u2019s going to get consistent minutes. He\u2019s probably going to come into the game right around the same time he, he\u2019s going to be asked to do certain things. But If Larry Nance Jr. Is not going to play at a high level and if he\u2019s not going to be a positive when he\u2019s out there on the floor, then this team does have Nae\u2019Qwan\u2019s Onland and they believe in him and they do have Thomas Bryant and there\u2019s a reason why they went out and brought in Thomas Bryant this off season. So I, I Tyrese Proctor, If Craig Porter Jr. Is not playing, if he\u2019s not doing the things that Kenny wants him to do, there\u2019s Tyrese Proctor as well. So I think a lot of these guys are going to get different points throughout the course of the season where Kenny leans into them a little bit more. But I don\u2019t know that there\u2019s going to be a level of consistency when it comes to their workload, when it comes to their shot attempts, when it comes to all of those different things. The other thing I think it\u2019s fair to point out, Evan Mobley and Donovan Mitchell as, as a partnership have, have played more than any other two man grouping this year. But, but what we\u2019re talking about here is the extended run of both of those guys together last year. If you looked at Donovan\u2019s minutes and Evans minutes, they were very, very comparable. And Kenny did his best to try and keep those guys together as much as he possibly could to a point where there were a couple of games where Donovan played 36 minutes total and like 34 were with Evan or something along those lines. So it\u2019s just not to the same level that it has been in the past, especially last year. Even though you know they\u2019re playing plenty together. And when they\u2019re on the floor together, the Cavs are outscoring the opponent by 10.5 points per 100 possessions. And that just shows you the kind of comfort that Evan has when he shares the floor with Donovan. The way that Donovan helps Evan makes him better, makes things easier on Evan. Not as much creation has to fall on him, not as much responsibility has to fall on him and stuff like that. So, you know, for all of those fans listening saying, wait a minute, Evan and Donovan were out there to start the fourth quarter together. For the second game in a row, Evan and Donovan are out there to start the game together. It\u2019s just not for the long, extended stretches that it was last year. And that can make things difficult on Evan especially. So I just think, you know, there are certain things that Kenny wants to tap into with his lineups and with his rotations, but there are still some things that he\u2019s trying to figure out. And some of these things are going to be fluid. And if you are somebody who\u2019s toward the back end of the depth chart, like, I wouldn\u2019t get overly comfortable. You still have to have this mentality of I\u2019ve got to produce or somebody else on this team will get an opportunity. Because the Cavs believe in Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin, they believe in Thomas Bryant, they believe in Tyrese Proctor, they believe in Craig Porter Jr. It\u2019s not the same level of belief as some of these top guys that they have, but if somebody is not getting the job done, Kenny has shown an adaptability and he\u2019s shown a willingness to go away from guys and give other guys an opportunity. And I think tonight showed that highlighted that with Larry Nance Jr. Not getting any. Any playing time whatsoever of Jared Allen. I mean, Jared Allen is fourth quarterback is a spectator in fourth quarters. That\u2019s just going to keep happening over and over and over again.<\/p>\n Jimmy Watkins: Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin played six minutes in the fourth quarter tonight. Thomas Bryant played three minutes in the fourth quarter tonight. It\u2019s starting to smell like trade in here to me with Jared Allen.<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: Jarrett played zero in the fourth quarter tonight.<\/p>\n Jimmy Watkins: That\u2019s what I\u2019m saying. Because it\u2019s one thing for it to be a matchup, B based thing. Okay, Evan Mobile. You want Evan Mobile. As you\u2019re loan big out there, it\u2019s another thing for you to deliberately choose other big men over journey like this. This is. We\u2019re getting to the point now where we\u2019re looking at ourselves here, taking stock of the Cavs and it\u2019s like, what are you paying this guy $20 million a year to do again? If Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin and Thomas Bryant can fill his role on a given night. Of course, there are nights where Jared Allen\u2019s awesome and looks worth every bit of that, of that money.<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: I thought he was really good tonight.<\/p>\n Jimmy Watkins: In the second stint in particular. Yeah, there was, there was no that. I said this on subtext too. This moment where right before Jared goes in, Kenny walked up to him and he gave him like a, like a little clap and maybe like a little jab to him and like, was a little fiery with him. And Jarrett responded first, like within seconds of checking into the game, blocked Giannis from behind, grabbed a couple rebounds, drew fouls, got a put back. He had like six points in like two and a half minutes. Then what happens in the third quarter when you\u2019re just getting cardio at this point? Like, it\u2019s not just a what do we pay you for thing anymore. We\u2019re meeting this sweet spot where it\u2019s like, how much longer is Jared Allen valuable in a trade? I think we\u2019ve already, we\u2019ve already lost the point where the Cavs were years ago. Well, you have to blow us away. And other teams were like, okay, we\u2019re not going to do that. I feel like now I think the Cavs would be like, if we get a rotation level, not a rotation, like a Jared Allen ish player at another position. Bang my line.<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: They talk about him a certain kind of way, right? And they always say that the view of Jarrett from the outside just doesn\u2019t match the value that the organization places on him. And it\u2019s like, when these things continue to happen, those words ring hollow. He\u2019s a member of your core four, but you don\u2019t treat him like a member of your core four. He\u2019s one of your more impactful players in terms of plus, minus, in terms of on off differential, in terms of what your win loss record is as an organization, when he plays, when he doesn\u2019t play. But you don\u2019t treat him like that. So if you\u2019re not going to treat him like that, why would people view him like that? I mean, it is outrageous. And I asked Kenny multiple times during the recent road trip, I said, hey, look, like Jared\u2019s one of your least used players in the fourth quarter. Why? What is going into that decision? And he even said in his response that night in Miami, he said, jarrett\u2019s one of our foremost important players. I have to start treating him that way. And I Have to remind myself of that sometimes. That was in Miami. That was last week. What has happened since then? There was one time, one time in the fourth quarter where he was like, all right, Miami\u2019s going small. You know, maybe I could go small, but let\u2019s go big instead. Let\u2019s be proactive. Let\u2019s do our thing. And sure, it was great in the fourth quarter. He was great. Scored 30 and 10 for the game. And if it wasn\u2019t for Craig Porter Jr. The night that Jarrett. The night that Jared scores 30 and 10 and he dominates. Kenny Atkinson\u2019s in the locker room, and he\u2019s talking to the guys about a great win against Miami. Under man, backs against the wall. First game of a back to back, and he\u2019s given this big speech. He\u2019s talking about a heroic effort. And Jared Allen\u2019s sitting right next to Kenny Atkinson, probably thinking, hey, all right. He\u2019s talking about me. Yes. Finally, I\u2019m about to get the recognition that I deserve. I just had 30 and 10, 30 and 10. And then all of a sudden, Kenny\u2019s like, Craig Porter Jr. Heroic effort. Stand up. And Jared\u2019s probably like, what the hell do I have to do around here? Are you kidding me?<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: So beyond that game where Kenny went back to him in the fourth quarter and Jarrett delivered the way that Kenny needed, the way that this team needed, he\u2019s been a ghost in the fourth quarter, and it hasn\u2019t been his fault now. They\u2019ve just been putting him on the bench because the rotation has slightly changed a little bit at the start of the fourth quarter. For two games in a row, Kenny has started with both Donovan and Evan. The other night. The other night against Memphis, Donovan and Evan played all 12 minutes. Tonight in the fourth quarter, Evan played all 12 minutes. And if you feel like you don\u2019t want to play Evan and Jarrett together, then if you\u2019re committed to that new rotation, and we\u2019ll see if Kenny is. Is Jared ever gonna play in the fourth quarter again? Like, what circumstances would have to present themselves for Kenny to play Jared in the fourth quarter again? If. If that\u2019s the rotation that he\u2019s kind of starting to lean into a little bit more, sure, he could go to Jared and Evan together, just like the starting group, but he has gone on record multiple times saying with the way that the game is being played right now, the speed of the game, how much teams are downsizing, the amount of switching that we may want to do in fourth quarters, that doesn\u2019t point to Jared Allen, guys. That points to. If Larry NANCE JR. Is effective. Maybe somebody with his skill set or Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin skill set or Dean Wade\u2019s skill set and playing a quote unquote smaller lineup instead of both bigs together.<\/p>\n Ethan Sands: Okay guys, I gotta do my due diligence since we\u2019re on this topic, because I was ready to go into how Lonzo Ball and Craig Porter Jr. Side by side is working even alongside Sam Merrill at points. But now we\u2019re talking about Jared Allen and trades and stuff like this. And now we have to go into the conversation of hearing rumors around the NBA and how Anthony Davis was in reports and conversations with the Cavs at one point over the last few years. And I know we just mentioned like players that could take up the role of what Jared is doing. Does AD fall into that conversation? And yes, I am well aware that contractually this is nearly impossible to pull off because Jared Allen does not make enough. So you would have to package with other players and the Cavs don\u2019t have any draft capital. All of this information is adequate. But I want to know what you guys, especially you, Chris, had been hearing about the Anthony Davis rumors and then also just how that could tie into the situation, if at all.<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: Well, all of that was before the Cavs became the only second apron team in the NBA. And now all of these new restrictions are on what they can do in terms of signings, in terms of trades, in terms of salary matching. They have to go down to the penny. It is very, very difficult in the situation that the Cavs are in to make any kind of trade. And when you\u2019re talking about Anthony Davis, if you\u2019re just talking about any high priced player in that kind of realm, however you want to characterize the guy, top 20 player, top 25, top 30, whatever it is, however you view that guy, that is going to be very, very difficult for the Cavs to pull off. So I think if, if they\u2019re going to make any kind of move at the trade deadline, if they feel like some kind of roster enhancement is required, they\u2019re gonna have to set their sights lower and fans are going to have to set their sights lower. And just think about the seventh man in a rotation, maybe the sixth man in a rotation, somebody that can be a starter, quality player, but probably on this team more of a backup type player, Anthony Davis, the way that you\u2019d have to change your offense, the salary that he commands, the limitations on what the Cavs can do in a trade, all of that stuff just makes it very, very for this team that has championship aspirations and believes in its roster to a pretty high degree, if we\u2019re being honest about it. To see them make a significant shakeup at the trade deadline would be surprising to me. Unless, like, there are alarming things that continue to pop up over and over and over again that the Cavs say, well, we got to do something different. We\u2019ve got to do some kind of significant alteration to this roster. If the Cavs. Look, this is just a hypothetical, okay? But if the Cavs are looking down the road and February is coming, and they\u2019re not seeing the evolution of Evan Mobley, if they\u2019re not seeing a guy that they think may be ready for this bigger role, more responsibility, higher usage, ready for what playoff basketball demands, and then the league itself becomes more open for a variety of reasons, okay, then maybe they say, all right, we got a shot here. Let\u2019s shake things up a little bit. Let\u2019s see what we can do under the salary cap limitations that we\u2019re working with in terms of trade activity. But short of something like that, I just think if this team\u2019s going to make a drastic move, it\u2019s going to happen. It\u2019s more likely to happen in the off season when they get the result of. Of this season in particular. But, you know, there are a number of different teams that. That have been interested in Anthony Davis over the last couple of years, and Anthony Davis is the type of player with the kind of skill set that would be attractive to the Cavs, that would be attractive to Kenny Atkinson and the kind of stuff, style that he wants to play, he can play inside, outside. And the difference is he\u2019s further along in his development in his career arc, and he\u2019s done things to a higher level than, say, somebody like Evan Mobley or Jared Allen. If you\u2019re talking about trying to find Robin to Donovan Mitchell\u2019s Batman, you know, and it makes sense that the Cavs would be interested in Anthony Davis. When you\u2019re competing for a championship, you know, at the very least, that that dude can be Robin. You\u2019ve seen it. You\u2019ve seen it be good enough to win a championship in the right circumstances.<\/p>\n Jimmy Watkins: One other key difference between Jared Allen and Evan Mobley and Anthony Davis is that they play basketball games, and Anthony Davis doesn\u2019t play basketball games.<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: He\u2019s got a calf issue.<\/p>\n Jimmy Watkins: And I\u2019m telling you, I\u2019m telling people right now, be prepared to be blown away by how underwhelming the Anthony Davis trade package is. Be prepared for that, because Anthony Davis is, I think, about to be 33 years old. Anthony Davis is due a contract extension next summer. Anthony Davis, as previously mentioned, doesn\u2019t play a lot of basketball. Who in their right mind is signing up to pay this dude a max extension? I freaking love Anthony Davis. Chris was saying top 25, top 20, top 30? How about top 15? I, I love Anthony Davis. I think he\u2019s an incredible basketball player. That\u2019s just an aside. I think people are going to be stunned by what the Mavericks end up having to accept for Anthony Davis. The other thing is I, I kind of agree. It\u2019s. It\u2019s just like logistically difficult for the Cavs to make a trade during the season. But I will keep coming back to. Okay, we need some, we need something, A major alarm to go up. A major red flag to be showing. It\u2019s early. This is not quite a prolonged trend yet. I would classify Jared Allen not being able to play fourth quarters as alarming to me. The kind of player they get in return. Well, it might not be Pete. Jared Allen, in a vacuum, could he play some fourth quarter minutes? Perhaps?<\/p>\n Ethan Sands: I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n Jimmy Watkins: I\u2019m just simple, like sixth, seventh man who has starter level talents, who can maybe close some games for you, who can give you a different shape in the playoffs, who. You don\u2019t have to question what you\u2019re getting, like reliability. Isn\u2019t this so ironic? The Cavs have been telling us for years, Mr. Dependable Ironman, Jared Allen. JB Biggerstaff used to say, I sleep better at night knowing that Jared Allen is on my run. And you know what? It\u2019s true for most of the season, the sample size getting long now in the playoffs of Jared Allen, no showing at key times. And now Kenny Atkins is like, this is his guy. Yeah, Kenny Atkinson is like a ground floor Jared Allen guy. He once told Jared Allen that the Brooklyn Nets would end up retiring his jersey. By the way, whose jersey are the Brooklyn Nets ever going to retire? That\u2019s an interesting off season. Pot like Cam Thomas might end up being the all time leading scorer in Brooklyn Nets franchise history. Okay, if we don\u2019t count any of the New Jersey stuff.<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: Regardless, bringing this back, if you\u2019re a Cavs fan and you\u2019re thinking in any way about any kind of Jared Allen trades, and I\u2019m not saying all of these players are a fit or all of these other teams would want Jared Allen, but the first thing that you have to do is you have to go to the salaries of the NBA and find somebody that makes around $20 million annually. So you\u2019re talking about Kentavius, Caldwell Pope, you\u2019re talking about Malik Monk, Santi Aldama. If the Clippers collapse like Bogdan Bogdanovich, like those types of players, and I\u2019m not saying again, all of those would be a fit for the Cavs, and I\u2019m not saying that all of those teams would be a fit for Jericho, but that\u2019s the type of player that you\u2019d be looking at. Those are the guys right around that $20 million mark that if the Cavs are going to pull off a trade and it\u2019s very, very complicated with their salary situation, that\u2019s what you\u2019re looking at.<\/p>\n Ethan Sands: And guys, Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin\u2019s impact has been tremendous through the first 15 games of the season. Obviously we\u2019ve seen some flashes of what he\u2019s capable of, his energy, his drive. Tonight he was literally diving on the floor to get a jump ball car. That was the exact epitome of the type of player that he is. The gritty style, the hungry style, the, the prideful style that he plays with. But Kenny Atkinson also did reference like maybe Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin gets playoff minutes. Well, to do that you would have to take him off a two way contract. And the Cavs, historically speaking, at least since I\u2019ve been here, have reserved that spot for when they wanted to add in a buyout contract or someone like late season acquisition. And I think it would be interesting to see how much the Cavs value Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin. And obviously it would be a great story in its own right because that would make what the third undrafted player to get a standard deal on this team. Craig Porter Jr. Dean Wade, Nadequan Tomlinson. Sam Marrow was 60th selection of his draft.<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: Don\u2019t forget Lars Stevens. He was the one that started it all. That whole movement still a success story. Yeah, the whole player development success story. Undrafted into two way into standard NBA contracts for sure.<\/p>\n Ethan Sands: But for players still on the Cavs roster, I think it\u2019s. And Chris, you\u2019re absolutely right, that pipeline is important to this Cavs team. Particularly while we\u2019re talking about this second apron dynamic and how hard it is to navigate that. And of course Sam Arrow just got a lengthy contract that Donovan Mitchell, Kenny Atkinson, the organization believes that he earned. But that also helps them in the development process because they knew how long they wanted to keep him. They probably are thinking about how he could replace Max Drew at some point if that situation comes down the line. They\u2019re also thinking about these other guys. Craig Porter Jr. Can you take on some of the creation load if Darius Garland gets traded, Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin, if Jared Allen gets traded? There\u2019s contingency plans for a lot of these players, in particular the ones that have the heftier contracts on the Cleveland Cavaliers. And I think that cannot go unnoticed or unsaid. And I think Kenny Atkinson pointing to Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin as a potential, potential for playoff minutes while he as a two way player is currently ineligible for those minutes, was interesting.<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: That\u2019s the thing when it comes to Nae\u2019Qwan, the thing that allows him to stand out is that it feels to me that there\u2019s a certain kind of makeup for this basketball team. Some of the players push back on this and Craig Porter Jr. Kind of pushed back on this earlier tonight, but it feels like the Cavs are built on skill more so than anything, versatility. Nae\u2019Qwan\u2019s just all energy. So that stands out. That stands out compared to some of these other guys who have built their careers more like skill based things. And I think there\u2019s a place for somebody like Nae\u2019Qwan. I, I don\u2019t know. It\u2019s way too early for me to say in the playoff rotation. Is he going to be ready for that? Can he stay out of foul trouble? Can he limit the bad plays, the airballed threes, the, the baffling pass attempts, mishandling passes from his teammates? He\u2019s still new to the game of basketball because he started so late. So going from what he was last year and what he was supposed to be at the start of this year into a bona fide rotation player, boy, that would be quite a development story. That would be quite a success story. I\u2019m not ready to rule it out, but I\u2019m also not ready to commit to that either. Just like I\u2019m sure the Cavs are looking at it saying, work in progress, wait and see. But the energy that he brings and the activity that he brings is just different. If we\u2019re looking at. When you get into a playoff series, sometimes you have to play small, sometimes you have to play big, sometimes you have to play fast, sometimes you have to play slow. The one thing that Nae\u2019Qwan does at a higher level than anybody else. So if you\u2019re looking for somebody different to bring something different, the thing that he does at a higher level than anybody else on this roster, that separates him even from Larry Nance Jr. Even from Dean Wade, the energy that he plays with, the activity that he brings to the floor for another team, that dude is annoying as Hell, to play against Gary Trent Jr that, that jump ball that you were talking about. Giannis looked at Gary Trent Jr. Like, dude, how did you not come up with that loose ball? How did you let him take that rebound from you? And there was another point where somebody got the rebound. It might have been Bobby Portis. Might have been. And Nae\u2019Qwan\u2019s just there with all of his limbs swinging back and forth, making a pass to his teammate difficult. That kind of stuff has a place. That kind of stuff separates you from some of your other teammates. We\u2019ve talked in the past about specialists. Okay. If you\u2019re going to a three point heavy lineup, what\u2019s it going to look like? If you\u2019re going to a super big lineup, what\u2019s it going to look like? What\u2019s your thing? What\u2019s the thing that\u2019s going to get you noticed? What\u2019s the thing that\u2019s going to get you playing time? Nae\u2019Qwan\u2019s thing is nobody else\u2019s thing on this team. And that helps him. Again, I\u2019m not ready to commit, but there is a place for him for sure, because of that energy, because of that level of activity that nobody else on this team matches. Not even Donovan Mitchell, not even Jared Allen, nobody else.<\/p>\n Ethan Sands: I have one name that I think while he might not offer the same skill set, Thomas Bryant, energy wise. Thomas Bryant, yes.<\/p>\n Chris Fedor: If we\u2019re talking about his demand to the coaching staff to challenge a play, I\u2019ve never seen anybody put that kind of energy toward it. That was hilarious.<\/p>\n Jimmy Watkins: Like Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin, he knows how to airball a three.<\/p>\n Ethan Sands: Kenny Atkinson also did admit that Thomas Bryant might have too much energy. He\u2019s worried about him exerting too much energy on the bench that he won\u2019t be able to compete in the game. Well, that has never been a problem for Thomas Bryant, thankfully. But I do think, and I wrote about this in an article for cleveland.com that came out this morning, actually, that Maquan Tomlin and Craig Porter Jr. Just have a different edge to them because they had to fight bite, claw to get to where they are, and they play with that kind of demeanor. And also for Craig Porter Jr. It\u2019s also, he\u2019s coming into a year after the season. He has a club option that the Cavs can either decide to pick up or not, and that decides whether or not he\u2019s going to be an NBA point guard. Right. And the dream that he\u2019s had, you can see it fading or you can see it come into fruition, and that kind of work ethic you see from behind the scenes is because of all of these things kind of combined. And as we mentioned, like, you have to have a different level of fearlessness, a different level of determination when you come into the NBA undrafted two way, then in the same season you get a standard contract. Like there\u2019s levels to this. And I think, Chris, you\u2019re absolutely right. Not only the Cavs, but I think the NBA are losing players or lacking players that have that kind of grip because there\u2019s so many players now that are coming up through this AAU system, overtime elite and. And all these other things where like the access to the game of basketball in itself is diminishing only to players who have the resources to get that. And I think it\u2019s interesting because of how the game of basketball, and you ask J.B. bickerstaff, you ask players around the league, they\u2019re saying the old school style of the game is faded. But there are still players around the league, around the NBA, that play with that. And it\u2019s because of their background, what they were taught, or it\u2019s just innate. Because sometimes you see players like Nae\u2019Qwan Tomlin, who didn\u2019t grow up playing high school ball, didn\u2019t grow up playing aau, grew up on the blacktop of Rucker park and all these parks around Harlem. You got to see that transition to college ball now to the NBA. And there\u2019s a different level of desire and fearlessness that these guys play with because they simply don\u2019t know anything else. This is their plan A. And plan A is all that they have. So with all that being said, that\u2019ll wrap up today\u2019s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to South. Thanks. Remember, we still have our hey Chris episode this week to handle, so send in your questions. But the only way to do so is by signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don\u2019t like it, that\u2019s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It\u2019s easy. But we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and and Jimmy. This isn\u2019t just our podcast, it\u2019s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y\u2019 all be safe. We out.<\/p>\n If you purchase a product or register for an account through a link on our site, we may receive compensation. By using this site, you consent to our User Agreement<\/a> and agree that your clicks, interactions, and personal information may be collected, recorded, and\/or stored by us and social media and other third-party partners in accordance with our Privacy Policy.<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"CLEVELAND, Ohio \u2014 In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and…\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":274179,"comment_status":"","ping_status":"","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[574],"tags":[64,63,726,85],"class_list":{"0":"post-293245","1":"post","2":"type-post","3":"status-publish","4":"format-standard","5":"has-post-thumbnail","7":"category-basketball","8":"tag-au","9":"tag-australia","10":"tag-basketball","11":"tag-sports"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/au\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/293245","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/au\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/au\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/au\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/au\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=293245"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/au\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/293245\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/au\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/274179"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/au\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=293245"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/au\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=293245"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/au\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=293245"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}