A Melbourne grandmother trained to use rifles and handguns while living in ISIS-controlled Syria, a court has been told, as the woman applies for bail while facing slavery charges.<\/p>\n
Kawsar Ahmad, also known as Kawsar Abbas, is one of the so-called ISIS brides who returned to Australia last month and was immediately arrested and charged by federal police.<\/p>\n
Ms Ahmad, 54, faces four crimes against humanity offences of enslavement, possessing a slave, using a slave and engaging in slave trading, for allegedly purchasing a female from a persecuted ethnic minority.<\/p>\n
She is applying for bail, with her lawyers arguing she would not stand trial for at least three years. <\/p>\n
A decision on bail is expected to be handed down on Thursday, a week after her co-accused daughter was denied bail.<\/p>\n
The bail hearing continued on Tuesday, with prosecutor Andrew Sprague detailing Ms Ahmad\u2019s movement to Turkiye and then Syria in 2015 after ISIS declared a caliphate.<\/p>\n
Ms Ahmad went to Syria with her daughters and grandchildren and obtained an ISIS identification card when living in Ar-Raqqah, Mr Sprague said.<\/p>\n
In 2015, a 15-year-old girl stayed at the family house \u201cto see if they would buy her\u201d, Mr Sprague said, but ultimately the family did not purchase the girl.<\/p>\n
Later that year, a female from a persecuted ethnic minority was purchased. <\/p>\n
Australian Federal Police alleged Ms Ahmad was aware and complicit in her husband buying the person for $US10,000.<\/p>\n
The state prosecutor in court this week tried to use Ms Ahmad\u2019s online comments as evidence she supported the terrorist organisation.<\/p>\n
Chief magistrate Lisa Hannan questioned whether some of the examples the Crown were using just voiced opposition to the US, as the comments were made while the US carried out a \u201clarge aerial bombing campaign in Syria\u201d.<\/p>\n
Mr Sprague argued a comment of \u201cdefeating the disbelievers goes to defeating the coalition forces and supporting Islamic State\u201d.<\/p>\n
Ms Hannan also questioned the Crown\u2019s use of translated accounts of years-old conversations that she said raised \u201ca whole bunch of ifs and maybes\u201d.<\/p>\n
The court was also told prosecutors had not ruled out laying terrorism charges against the grandmother.<\/p>\n
\u201cShe was involved in teaching females at the Islamic State institute in Raqqa,\u201d Mr Sprague said.<\/p>\n
Questioned by Ms Hannan about Ms Ahmad\u2019s supposed knowledge of ISIS\u2019s crimes against humanity, Mr Sprague said Ms Ahmad\u2019s decision to travel to Syria, teach religious studies, obtain an ISIS identification card and train in rifle and Glock handgun use showed \u201cher sustained and active involvement with Islamic State\u201d.<\/p>\n
As for the 54-year-old\u2019s bid for bail, Mr Sprague said given the difficulty in predicting extremist incidents and the devastation they brought, even a low risk of Ms Ahmad proselytising while out on bail should be deemed unacceptable.<\/p>\n
Ms Hannan will deliver a bail decision on Thursday, while Ms Ahmad is not expected to stand trial \u2013 if she pleads not guilty \u2013 for at least three years.<\/p>\n
On Monday, the court was told Ms Hannan was divorcing her jailed ISIS fighter husband and just wanted to live a peaceful life in Australia with her children and grandchildren.<\/p>\n
Ms Ahmad\u2019s lawyers made the claim during the bail hearing.<\/p>\n
Prosecutors argue her alleged act of enslavement formed part of ISIS\u2019s crimes against humanity.<\/p>\n
Disavowed ISIS<\/p>\n
Ms Ahmad\u2019s lawyers argued the grandmother now disavowed ISIS following the deaths of her sons and brother, wanted to live a peaceful life after six years in a refugee camp, and was in the process of divorcing her husband who was in custody in Iraq.<\/p>\n
Her lawyer offered bail conditions that Ms Ahmad would not engage in religious instruction and would not be involved with any mosques.<\/p>\n
A forensic psychologist told the court that because only 1.6 to 2.9 per cent of extremists reoffended, there was no reliable risk assessment tool.<\/p>\n
Michael Davis said he interviewed Ms Ahmad at length about her mental state, previous radical views and her current views on Islam.<\/p>\n
\u201cI would think it very unlikely, just because she held those views a decade ago, that they\u2019re going to resurface,\u201d he said.<\/p>\n
\u201cThe fact she lost two brothers and a son \u2026 that\u2019s probably contributed to her negative views of Islamic State.\u201d<\/p>\n
Ms Ahmad had a host of post-traumatic stress and major depressive symptoms, Dr Davis said.<\/p>\n
Ms Hannan questioned if Dr Davis believed Ms Ahmad could follow her sons and brother to martyrdom.<\/p>\n
\u201cNo. I don\u2019t at all. She\u2019s not going to kill herself. That\u2019s against her more moderate views of Sunni Islam. I don\u2019t see that as any \u2018last resort\u2019 type thinking,\u201d Dr Davis said.<\/p>\n
\u201cRe-radicalisation is vanishingly rare and there\u2019s no literature about it.\u201d<\/p>\n
Under cross-examination, Dr Davis said he had never deradicalised an Islamic extremist but had worked on assessments of many radicalised Australians.<\/p>\n
\u201cShe comes across as a very damaged person who wants to be with her family and has a dim view of Islamic State,\u201d he said.<\/p>\n
Dr Davis\u2019 expert evidence was that because such a small proportion of people who had been radicalised and convicted go on to reoffend, the sample size to base a reoffending risk assessment tool upon was too small.<\/p>\n
\u201cI\u2019m very cautious. I looked very hard for things that would give me pause when it came to Mrs Ahmad and I really couldn\u2019t find anything.<\/p>\n
\u201cMost people who kill someone do not become serial killers.\u201d<\/p>\n
Ms Ahmad\u2019s brother has offered a $75,000 bail surety against his family home, and told the court he would call the police immediately if his sister broke any bail conditions.<\/p>\n
\u201cI\u2019m a moderate Muslim. I denounce Islamic State. My family does not support Islamic State; never have, never will. This has nothing to do with Islam,\u201d her brother told the court.<\/p>\n
Six years a refugee<\/p>\n
On Monday, Ms Ahmad\u2019s lawyer told the court her estranged husband was the \u201cprinciple offender\u201d, and Ms Ahmad travelled to Syria via Turkiye when her husband took a second wife.<\/p>\n
The grandmother, her daughters and grandchildren spent six years in refugee camps before returning to Australia this year.<\/p>\n
The court was told there was no evidence Ms Ahmad tried to indoctrinate anyone while in the camps in Syria\u2019s northwest.<\/p>\n
Her lawyer Peter Morrissey SC argued the Australian government could have charged her earlier, and that delay on top of the at least three years it will take for a trial were reasons for bail. The lawyer also read out an unequivocal disavowment of the terrorist group from Ms Ahmad.<\/p>\n
AFP agent Marc Clendenning gave evidence from a statement by the allegedly enslaved woman.<\/p>\n
\u201cI told them I did not want to take religious studies. Kawsar told me if I did not study my end would be in hell,\u201d the alleged victim said.<\/p>\n
\u201cI was not allowed to practice my own religion. If I missed prayers, they would beat me.\u201d<\/p>\n
Making submissions for bail, Mr Morrissey said the Islamic Society of Victoria had written to the court acknowledging Ms Ahmad\u2019s situation, including her willingness to not attend any mosques.<\/p>\n
\u201cShe\u2019s going to be living a very confined and peaceful life \u2013 that\u2019s her wish,\u201d Mr Morrissey said in arguing for bail.<\/p>\n
Ms Ahmad was in the process of divorcing her husband, which had been delayed in the absence of their original marriage certificate.<\/p>\n
\u201cShe wishes to practice her religion at home in peace,\u201d Mr Morrissey said.<\/p>\n
\u201cShe\u2019s fair dinkum. She wants to behave \u2026 she is game for any restriction to be in place and she would like to show she is worthy of the trust (of bail).\u201d<\/p>\n