Throughout his filmmaking career, Benny Safdie (Uncut Gems, Good Time) has been fascinated with what it feels like to lose — to give everything you have and still not come out on top. It’s a question that seems to preoccupy many ultra-successful people, because as it turns out, Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson found himself thinking about that as well.

In 2019, Johnson told Safdie he was interested in portraying former wrestler and mixed martial artist Mark Kerr in a movie. He had watched the 2002 documentary The Smashing Machine: The Life and Times of Extreme Fighter Mark Kerr, and deeply empathized with the pain and vulnerability behind Kerr’s immense strength. That alone was enough to pique Safdie’s interest.

“I instantly was like, ‘Oh, he wants to play this guy,'” Safdie recalls in an interview with Q’s Tom Power during this year’s Toronto International Film Festival. “[Kerr is] a complicated person. You know, he’s got his own struggles. He’s dealing with addiction. He’s struggling in his relationship with his girlfriend and he’s struggling with what it means to be the best. And those are not things that you would normally associate with Dwayne because he’s so successful.”

WATCH | Benny Safdie’s full interview with Tom Power:

After that conversation, Safdie and Johnson started production on their highly anticipated sports drama The Smashing Machine, which is based on the true story of Kerr’s tragic decline. The film is set to hit theatres later this week.

Unlike a traditional sports drama, The Smashing Machine doesn’t end with a big, satisfying victory, but rather a quieter, more personal triumph for Kerr as he finds self-acceptance. Safdie says we can learn a lot about ourselves from stories about people who lost and still managed to find inner peace.

Winning is a very fleeting feeling, but the losses are where you can really see humanity.- Benny Safdie

“What if you don’t win?” he says. “There’s an amazing collection of essays called Losers, and it’s about different people in sports who have lost. In the beginning, the authors write this thing about how winning is a very fleeting feeling, but the losses are where you can really see humanity. And that really struck me because I’ve always been obsessed with trying — not necessarily succeeding — but somebody really trying their hardest to do something…. So when somebody loses, nobody likes to talk about it because it doesn’t feel good, you know? But you can learn a lot about yourself in that moment if you could get past it and be like, ‘You know what, it’s OK to lose.'”

WATCH | Official trailer for The Smashing Machine:

The full interview with Benny Safdie is available on our YouTube channel and on our podcast, Q with Tom Power. He also talks about Happy Gilmore 2. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

Interview with Benny Safdie produced by Mitch Pollock.