Ashkenazi food\u2014until recently relegated to the joke pile of ethnic foods, unavoidably beige and full of fat\u2014is undergoing a surprising revival. From karnatzel to kasha, traditional dishes once associated with bubbe\u2019s kitchen are now finding their way onto trendy urban menus, sparking an unexpected culinary renaissance that\u2019s as much about cultural reconnection as it is about gastronomic indulgence.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s the topic of an article written by journalist Michael Kaminer<\/a>, headlined \u201cToronto chefs put a new twist on the old Jewish classics<\/a>\u201c, recently published in The CJN. In it, Kaminer offers insights into this culinary trend, interviewing young Jewish chefs who are marking a professional return to their Ashkenazi roots. It marks a departure from popular Jewish food of the last few decades, which often skewed toward healthier Israeli restaurants\u2014themselves often broadened as \u201cMiddle Eastern\u201d or \u201cMediterranean\u201d. But a newfound wave of Jewish nostalgia, cultural reappropriation<\/a> and the apolitical joy of comfort food have swung open the kitchen door back to blintzes and babka.<\/p>\n Kaminer joins Phoebe Maltz Bovy to discuss the trend and the possible politics underpinning it, including chefs\u2019 own reactions to embracing their Jewish heritage in an era of newfound antisemitism.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n Transcript<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Hi, I\u2019m Phoebe Maltz Bovy, and you\u2019re listening to The Jewish Angle, a podcast from the Canadian Jewish News where I look at Jews\u2019 complicated place in today\u2019s cultural and political landscape, caught between anti-Semites and overenthusiastic philo-Semites. How do we make sense of our situation? So, the summer issue of Scribe Quarterly, the print magazine from The CJN, is about Jews and food, and I encourage you to read it. But there is always more to say on the matter, and I\u2019ve been mulling over a couple of items in that realm. Both Michael Kaminer\u2019s recent article for The CJN\u2019s website about trendy new Jewish restaurants in Toronto and also a June essay by Navneet Alang, a Toronto Star Opinion editor, that appeared on his personal website called \u2018The Trouble with David Schwartz.\u2019 It\u2019s about the cultural significance, political significance of a white chef getting positive press for his Chinese restaurants. And it barely mentions Schwartz\u2019s Jewishness. So, I was kind of sitting with this. I was trying to square two things in my mind that both seem true, that we\u2019re living in a time where the fact that a chef or restaurateur is Jewish is relevant in how you talk about sort of the politics of its reception. But also that there is this wider world in which most North American Jews do register as white. And everybody, you know, things are relative, everybody perceives things differently. And it seemed like the kind of Jews stuck in the middle story that\u2019s very much my beat. And I was thinking about this in this kind of calm way and I was going to unpack it and think about it when I had time, when I got around to it. And then something happened, which is that on July 1, Canada Day, someone shot a gun into Mimi Chinese, one of Schwartz\u2019s restaurants. Later that week, that same building was shot into again. It\u2019s not yet known why. I don\u2019t know why. Maybe somebody knows why, maybe the shooter knows why. Maybe not even. I don\u2019t know. Or shooters, I don\u2019t know. But suddenly this seemed less like a sort of me and my evergreen musing story and more like something urgent to think about. COVID not in the sense of investigative journalism, of forensic details, of bullets, but culture, restaurants, Jews, things of that nature. And really just because of the places my own mind goes when I hear about a shooting at a Jewish-owned restaurant, certainly one not far from where I live, I don\u2019t know what to make of a lot of this or even how to have these conversations in these times. So, I am thrilled that Michael Kaminer, the author of the piece for us about Toronto\u2019s Jewish food revival, has agreed to come on the show for this episode. Michael is a prolific journalist, many of whose New York Times articles I had already read before meeting him. Happenstance in Toronto, including $1 million homes in Finland, for which he did not go to Finland, but he can tell you anything you want to know about million-dollar homes in Finland. Michael is based in Toronto and New York and is from Montreal. So there\u2019s your Canadian Jewish angle, if you will. Michael, welcome to The Jewish Angle.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Thank you.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: So at the beginning of your article, which is fantastic and I learned a lot from it and want to eat in all these places, you list a bunch of different sort of Ashkenazi Jewish foods that are being revived in Toronto at the moment. Cholent, or hollont, I don\u2019t know, karnatzel, kasha, challah, blintzes. That\u2019s a quote. Four of these I recognized, and three I have eaten, but I don\u2019t know one of them. What is karnatzel?<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Oh, karnatzel. If you grew up in Montreal, you would know karnatzel. It\u2019s like a Slim Jim, basically, except the Ashkenazi Jewish version. And to be honest with you, I have no idea what exactly goes into a karnatzel, but I grew up eating them as a kid. And if you walked into Schwartz\u2019s or one of the famous delis in Montreal, you\u2019d always see a karnatzel hanging from the ceiling. But just picture a Slim Jim, okay? Just this very slim tube of meat. And again, God knows what\u2019s in it. I\u2019m going to figure pork is not, but it is definitely meat.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Well, how the sausage gets made is always.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: We don\u2019t want to know. Yeah, right. Except at Linny\u2019s. You probably do want to know because I\u2019m jumping ahead. But David Schwartz makes those in-house, which is very unusual, very labor-intensive, and very time-consuming.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: That is interesting. Yeah, I was going to ask who was making karnatzel. So that\u2019s, David Schwartz is the one making.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: I see, I see. But presumably not at Mimi Chinese.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Not yet. Although anything creative is happening. Keep an eye on the menu.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: So what is your own relationship to Canadian Jewish food?<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Well, having grown up in Montreal, my grandparents were Holocaust survivors. My parents are immigrants. So, I grew up with traditional Jewish Ashkenazi food, which was not a novelty for me. It was what we ate every day, what my grandmothers cooked, what my mother cooks still. And even the restaurants in Montreal where we went, it wasn\u2019t a shtick. That was what we ordered when we went out to some Montreal restaurants that would serve it. Those restaurants don\u2019t exist anymore. This is the old school, very first wave when I was a kid. Places like the Brown Derby in Montreal that some of your listeners might recognize, where the menu was all very straight-up Ashkenazi Jewish food. So, that\u2019s my relationship to it. I mean, a firsthand experience when I was growing up where it was really just our menu. I mean, other things. Of course, like everybody else, we go out for Chinese food and go to steakhouses and whatnot, but the Ashkenazi food was part of our routine.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: It\u2019s interesting because I\u2019m trying to remember how big a role that type of food played in my own childhood. So, my maternal grandmother was from Montreal. My parents both grew up in Brooklyn, I grew up in Manhattan. And I\u2019m just trying to think like this definitely, like I knew, like kasha varnishkes. I knew what this was and I had eaten it in my life. But how often would I actually eat this type of food? I would say not very often. It was something that I knew; it definitely, like, there are ingredients that I still have in my house. Like, I will have matzah in the house year-round to make matzo. Right, whatever. But like this, it was such a small sort of percentage of what I would eat, and it was much more just sort of whatever was around type food. Which is interesting because these chefs that you\u2019re writing about, so like I was born in 1983, I would assume they are a bunch of them quite a bit younger. I know David Schwartz is quite a bit younger. And I just wonder like how much this is. Like it has to be kind of sought out or whether in the Canadian, especially Montreal, experience, this would have been like a bigger part of day-to-day life.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Well, I think you just hit on it. That\u2019s one of the biggest differences I\u2019ve noticed. Living, you know, having grown up in Montreal and I\u2019ve lived in the States for quite a while is, you know, that old adage about Canada being a\u2014The US is a melting pot. Canada is a mosaic. I mean, it\u2019s a clich\u00e9, but it\u2019s really reflected in how Jewish food kind of plays out in people\u2019s lives here versus there. In Brooklyn, for example, or, you know, in New York, things like matzo ball soup are on every diner menu everywhere. And I guess you can experience it wherever you want. It\u2019s almost become a generic thing.\u00a0 Growing up where I did, and a lot of the people I know who grew up with the same kind of background just had, again, a very firsthand relationship to a lot of these kinds of foods where they had not necessarily mainstream. I think there was almost an imperative, aside from the fact that it was what we knew and what we loved. Underneath that, I think there might have been an imperative to try to keep it alive by cooking it, if I had to psychoanalyze where some of those food habits were coming from.\u00a0 I think you nailed it, that there\u2019s a big difference in the approach to this, at least in some Canadian cities, versus the American experience around this food.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: No, that is interesting. So I was thinking that a lot of the Jewish nostalgia cuisine I remember from New York of the 2010s was Montreal-inspired. So I\u2019m thinking like Mile End or Black Seed Bagels, and maybe that\u2019s just two examples, but I remember them seeming to loom large, like the sort of Montreal Jewish, or maybe Seth Rogen can be the third. It\u2019s exciting to see this happening in Canada as well. But something I\u2019m wondering, is this sort of happening later? Is this like this deli nostalgia? I wrote about hipster Judaism and deli core a couple of months ago. Is this happening later in Canada, like in the revival?<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: I think it\u2019s happened in waves. I mean, I did a story for The Washington Post 10 years ago.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: That is why I asked about a\u2026<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Jewish nouveau deli revival that was happening more than a decade ago. You know, I think there\u2019s probably a million different factors. First of all, the fact that Mile End and Black Seed came to New York was, again, because the Jewish food culture in Montreal is still pretty strong. And because some of those people, like Noah Bernamoff, who was the proprietor of Mile End and Black Seed, I think we have similar backgrounds, right?\u00a0 Then I also think, honestly, every time there\u2019s a crisis or things completely go bananas in the world, people do tend to reach for nostalgic anything. And that might be another catalyst for why some of these nostalgic Jewish foods get revived. As David Schwartz pointed out in the piece that I did for The CJN, probably like every other culture, Jewish chefs go out into the world and they go work at Momofuku or study at the Cordon Bleu or whatever and want to move as far as possible from what they grew up with.\u00a0 After finding success or cooking dumplings or whatever exotic fusion food they\u2019ve cooked, they start getting a little bit of a pang for their own type of food and want to reclaim their identities. So it happened with David, with Shauna in the piece, with Zach Kolomayir, who\u2019s in the piece, coincidentally, I think they all had this sort of moment around the same time and decided to explore their Jewish food roots in very, very different ways.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: So I wanted to ask about that because I had actually specifically highlighted that quote from David Schwartz that\u2019s in your piece: chefs at first don\u2019t want to cook the food of their heritage, but come back to it eventually. I\u2019m wondering if this is more true of Jewish chefs and maybe more Canadian Jewish ones, maybe more Ashkenazi Jewish ones, I don\u2019t know. But whether there is a specific sort of cringe that happens like, \u201cI\u2019m not going to make that kind of old-school food.\u201d\u00a0 The reason I ask is partly because of the reactions I sometimes get when I tell people I work at The Canadian Jewish News. Sometimes people are like, \u201cOh, that\u2019s nice,\u201d and other times people are like, \u201cOh, that\u2019s associated with my bubby,\u201d and this kind of cringing where they kind of cringe in a way. Do you know what I\u2019m talking about?<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: I do. Okay, well, I\u2019m going to go back to my favorite quote from Annie Hall, which is Woody Allen saying, \u201cI\u2019d never want to belong to any club that would have someone like me as a member.\u201d So I think there\u2019s some of that feeling for some of these chefs, and then eventually they get over it and, like anyone else, sort of reclaiming their culture.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: But is it like anyone else? That\u2019s kind of what I want to drill down on. Like, is this more pronounced among Jews or Canadian Jews or Ashkenazi Jews than\u2026 Or is this just like a universal human thing? Like, I don\u2019t think there are French chefs doing this.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: That\u2019s an excellent question. I was just thinking, well, I don\u2019t know any Italian chefs who said, \u201cI\u2019m moving as far away from my Italian culture because of whatever.\u201d You know, of course, the history, the whole cultural aspect is a little more fraught with us. Also, I don\u2019t think Jewish food was considered cool for the longest time, and now I think there\u2019s a cool factor coming in. So if you were a chef trying to make your name in the world, whether it\u2019s in Canada or elsewhere, maybe it was not necessarily the way to establish your cred by cooking Kreplach in your first restaurant.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: But they\u2019re quite nice.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Whereas now it\u2019s a completely different ballgame. Again, the reason I called out those five dishes at the top of the CJN story was to say exactly that. Guess what? This is bubby food. But guess what? It is now the hippest five things on the menu at these restaurants.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: When I was growing up, there was a lot of this kind of\u2026 It wasn\u2019t Jewish self-hatred, but it was specifically Ashkenazi culinary self-hatred. Self-hatred is too strong. I\u2019m using this tongue-in-cheek, but a lot of the time Jews of my own background would be like, \u201cOur food is gross, but we like Mizrachi food, we like Sephardic food, we like Israeli food. That\u2019s the food that has flavor, that\u2019s the food that has the fresh produce in it, that\u2019s the good food.\u201d Are we seeing kind of a reversal of that? Or is that not such a thing? Is it\u2026 Or another possibility\u2026 Okay, I\u2019m not going to leave it at one thing. Is it that there\u2019s maybe a sort of political bifurcation happening where you get one sort of political ideological team that\u2019s like, \u201cPatronize your local Israeli-owned falafel stand,\u201d and the other is like \u201cpro-diaspora\u201d? Or am I oversimplifying? Because I suspect I\u2019m oversimplifying, and I\u2019ll get to why, but\u2026<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Well, we have to sort of untangle a couple of things here. One is that, you know, I think\u2026 I can\u2019t remember if I had this line in the piece, but I was careful not to lump in Israeli Mediterranean food or kosher food with the stuff I was writing about.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Oh, that\u2019s clear. That\u2019s very clear that these are different. Yes.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: So that\u2019s one thing. The second thing is where you grew up, I\u2019m going to assume, versus where I grew up, everybody was an immigrant. Where I grew up, when I moved to the States and I heard an old person talk without an accent, I was shocked. That was my environment growing up. So nobody thought that food was gross because, number one, they loved it. It was the food from back home.\u00a0 And I wouldn\u2019t say they were definitive about cooking it, but there was never a thought that it was anything other than a beloved food that we actually wanted to eat as much as possible. So it didn\u2019t have that; it wasn\u2019t loaded the way maybe second or third or fourth-generation Jews would want to move away from it. I think it\u2019s probably natural for any immigrant group to try to maybe move away from some of the\u2026<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Sure. But with the specificity, I think, being the Zionist angle. So, it wasn\u2019t just about like. So, some of it was Moroccan Jewish food, which sounds better than Polish Jewish food to some people. I\u2019m not gonna state where I stand on this, but no, I don\u2019t even know. It depends. It depends on which food. But some of it was also about like, you know, there\u2019s a Zionist element to it too, right?<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Yeah, honestly, I\u2019m not sure I would go there, to be honest. I would simplify it to the fact that Ashkenazi Jewish food is loaded with fat and carbs and stuff that\u2019s not good for you, and meat. And meat was out of fashion for a really long time. Whereas Mediterranean, Moroccan Jewish, whatever, the Mediterranean diet is very bright, colorful produce, healthy blue zone. Whatever the opposite of a blue zone diet is, is what Ashkenazi food is. And actually, these new generation chefs, the ones in The CJN story, are pretty defiant about that\u2014about using meat, about using schmaltz. I\u2019m trying to remember some of the other ingredients that Shauna mentioned that she\u2019s using at Maven. So rather than thinking about putting a political overlay on it, to be honest, I think it may be as simplistic as the perception of healthfulness versus something like that.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Oh, this is so interesting. And this is why I\u2019m glad that I don\u2019t just do a column, but that I also do a podcast and talk to other people and get outside of my somewhat limited brain because I think there is something to this, and this is putting everything in a totally different context for me. I\u2019m now thinking about how there have been these changes in how health is talked about and which foods are considered healthy. And now we have this whole\u2014this is the right-wing thing in the US\u2014of the beef tallow, you know, but there has been this kind of health-promoting, almost reclamation of, I dare say, the pastrami sandwich. And to do another Woody Allen reference from Sleeper: Didn\u2019t they know about, like, deep fat? Do you know what I\u2019m talking about?<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Okay.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: In case they are listening. I\u2019m sure, I\u2019m sure whoever is listening to this does know what I\u2019m talking about. But Sleeper, Woody Allen\u2019s satirical sci-fi movie, is set in a future where science knows that you should actually be eating very fattening foods. And I feel like we\u2019re kind of living in that future now. That\u2019s why I think about that line so much. But maybe there is more of a pastrami sandwich. Well, it\u2019s not a seed oil.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Right? There\u2019s that. And don\u2019t forget, I feel like we\u2019re still\u2014even though it\u2019s a little bit in the rearview\u2014still in a post-COVID moment where it\u2019s about revenge eating and everything you had to sacrifice during that time. Everybody\u2019s going completely bananas eating things that are, you know, quote-unquote \u201cbad\u201d for them. So, I think there\u2019s a certain aspect of pleasure-seeking in indulging in this food without worrying about it or feeling guilty about it, which is enabling these chefs to do what they do. In the broader restaurant world right now, there is a kind of maximalism going on. Like small plates, spare plates, minimalist plates, nouveau, anything where it\u2019s really spare\u2014that is really not what\u2019s happening. I can tell you in New York, and at least what I can see in Toronto, it\u2019s all about bigger plates, more fried, more loaded with everything: with sauce, with butter, you name it. The more you can dump on, the better. It\u2019s funny not to get too tangential, but there\u2019s a similar trend going on right now in home decor where it\u2019s all about maximalism. It\u2019s all about putting as many patterns and textures in a room as you possibly can. So to go back to your point, yes, it\u2019s about the beef tallow, crazy right-wing moment, but I also think there\u2019s still some of this post-COVID, \u201cI\u2019m going to experience as much pleasure as possible when I\u2019m eating and not worry about it because I\u2019m still making up for those years.\u201d<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Well, I\u2019m excited for that trend in home decor.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: That sounds\u2014it\u2019s happening. Go see some patterns behind you. So that\u2019s\u2026<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: This is\u2014this is nothing. This is nothing. But you mentioned Dreyfus, the restaurant Dreyfus. And as it happens, my first ever piece for The CJN was an interview with its chef, Zachary Colemire. And this was about\u2014this was in January 2020. Was sort of a pre-COVID. I think the interview certainly was pre-COVID, and it was about the restaurant\u2019s name because, to my knowledge, it\u2019s the only restaurant anywhere whose name is actually a reference to a famous anti-Semitic historical event. Do you know of any other?<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: No, I\u2019ll try to think of one, but off the top of my head, no. He might be the first.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Yeah. I mean, all I could think of is Vichy sunscreen and face products, but that\u2019s not the same thing at all. But basically, what was interesting was I was noticing in your piece that when you asked him about the sort of response he\u2019s gotten or anticipated, and he\u2019s saying it\u2019s not a religiously Jewish restaurant, so it\u2019s been like he keeps the religious stuff separate or something. But I\u2019m thinking like the Dreyfus affair wasn\u2019t really about religion either. I thought that was just an interesting answer because the Dreyfus affair was a Jewish\u2014For listeners who may not know, French Jewish army officer wrongly convicted of treason in the late 19th century. Theodore Herzl famously covered this. You know, this may or may not have inspired him to, you know, found modern political Zionism. Anyway, I thought that was an interesting response that he said about the religion stuff. But I wanted to talk specifically about religion and where this fits in because I\u2019m wondering about the clientele of these restaurants in Toronto because, like you say, they\u2019re not kosher restaurants and they\u2019re located outside the sort of Jewish restaurant zone, which, as I understand it from the number 7 bus, is on Bathurst. How\u2014so what I\u2019m wondering is how or where do you think? I\u2019m not even going to ask how many of the diners are Jewish because I would assume probably it couldn\u2019t be that many just demographically. But how aware do you think they are that these even are Jewish restaurants?<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: I asked a similar question of the chefs. What I said was, how many of your customers tell you they are familiar with this food and love it? And how many tell you they are discovering this food for the first time, as if they were going to eat Burmese food or something they\u2019ve never eaten? They said it\u2019s pretty equally divided. There are even some\u2026<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: So in terms of how many Jewish customers there are, they really couldn\u2019t say because they don\u2019t ask them when they walk through the door.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: That\u2019s probably for the best. They told me two things: One is that people will say, \u201cOh my God, my bubby used to make\u201d, you know, like that kind of response to food. And there is a frequent response where a customer will say, \u201cWhat is this? I had never tasted this,\u201d you know, because they\u2019re not going to pronounce it properly. So most of the chefs said it is equal parts, sort of a reconnection for some people and a discovery for some people. But I imagine that\u2019s not necessarily divided between Jewish and non-Jewish lines because.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: I would have said Jews.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Yeah. Who some of them may never have. If you\u2019re in a third or fourth-generation household, there\u2019s a good chance you\u2019ve never had or even heard of some of this stuff.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Yeah. Like those knishes that I don\u2019t know about.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: There you go.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: So I was wondering about just like the openness question, because there\u2019s definitely a thing where Israeli restaurants call themselves Mediterranean. There\u2019s definitely a thing where other Middle, like also, I mean, there\u2019s near me a Palestinian restaurant called itself Mediterranean too that like has a Palestinian other branch. Like not just the cuisine, but whatever. So this definitely exists. But how open are these restaurants in their PR materials, whatever signage, anything, menus? Like, how overt is the Jewishness? Or is it if, you know, you know.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Two-part answer. I\u2019d say it\u2019s pretty overt in the messaging around the restaurants and in some of the explanations on the menus, I think, of where some of this food came from. But none of the restaurants have signage outside that says like a Jewish restaurant. And David Schwartz had a great quote which was, you know, if you said you were a Christian restaurant, I\u2019d feel a little weird walking through the door. So I don\u2019t think they feel the need to put it on the outside of the restaurant. And I have to say in interviews I\u2019ve seen in other media with some of these chefs, they\u2019re 100% out there about the fact that it\u2019s Jewish, Jewish-inspired. They\u2019re Jewish, juju, Jew, 100%. But not necessarily, you know, on the outside of the restaurant, which is probably appropriate.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: I think it could go either way. I mean, I think Jewish is different from Christian in the specificity and what it refers to. But at the same time, I feel like having lived through the 2010s, I know that if a place called itself a Jewish restaurant, it would get potentially pushback, not just from. And I will get to this next, because I cannot not get to this, the people who wish Jews ill. But it would also potentially get the response of, why are you saying this is Jewish food? It\u2019s not just that Ashkenazi food is Jewish food. And even if you say that\u2019s true, this is Jewish food, and so is other stuff, you would get that whole sort of pushback also. So it may just be easier to be the thing and not announce it in that way.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Maybe. But, you know, they\u2019re also another aspect of this. They\u2019re all very clear about specific inspirations for this food. So it\u2019s not just, here\u2019s Kasha, it\u2019s a. It\u2019s an Ashkenazi Jewish food. It\u2019s here\u2019s my grandmother\u2019s recipe. She used X, Y, and Z. I am chefing it up by putting this stuff in it. Or at NL Ginsberg, Zach Coleman\u2019s new restaurant. Like, this is the thing we saw traveling through this part of Rome where Jews did this. That with these ingredients. So they\u2019re very clear about the inspiration for some, where some of this food came from. So, again, do they need to define it the way you\u2019re describing it? I\u2019m not really.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Yeah, no, I think that makes sense. I. It was not me saying that they should do otherwise. I. I promise.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: But, you know, agreed that the danger of none of them wanted to talk about this. And I don\u2019t blame them because they were very clear that the sort of Jewish food culture being very different from Judaism. I mean, it might sound basic to us, but I think some people may not. Yeah, may not think about it that way, but they were very clear about wanting to be perceived that way, that their restaurants are about celebrating Jewish food, Jewish food culture, and not about Judaism. And maybe that is another reason why putting the word Jewish on the tin is not necessarily what they wanted.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Right. I mean, then there\u2019s a further aspect of you would have people who keep kosher saying, how dare you call this a Jewish restaurant if, you know, observant Jews.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Can\u2019t eat at it 100%.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Um, so I. I don\u2019t want to only talk about the depressing stuff, but I\u2019m going to talk about the depressing stuff because we have just a little time left and I have to.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: That\u2019s what we do.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: And then I will drown my sorrows in a, in a smoked meat sandwich somewhere. But as somewhat depressing research for this podcast and also for a column I\u2019m writing about these topics, I did some non-comprehensive research on how many Jewish restaurants in Canada and elsewhere in the Diaspora have been either protested, vandalized, attacked, or boycotted or otherwise hassled since October 7, 2023. And it is a lot. And it. What surprised me the most is how many are ones that have no particular connection to Israel. So they\u2019re not. Is. It\u2019s not that it\u2019s, there\u2019s no BDS angle that I could see or if there is, it\u2019s extremely tangential, like who the restaurant owner is suspected of supporting politically. So like, I\u2019m thinking specifically of like the Second Avenue Deli in New York City or there was a Bay Area bagel shop or like a bagel shop in Toronto also some chain was, you know, boycotted or whatever, things like that. So it\u2019s not that deli food or Ashkenazi home cooking are in the clear. And there was even a Guardian restaurant review last year that I wrote about at the time by Jay Rayner, who\u2019s a critic who\u2019s Jewish himself, where he\u2019s sort of hand-wringing about whether it\u2019s unseemly, given the war in Gaza, to review a New York-style deli in London. And he fortunately decides he\u2019s allowed to do that. And I\u2019m glad he decides that. But the hand-wringing itself kind of drove me nuts, which is why I wrote about it. But I\u2019m wondering, though, whether the reason we\u2019re seeing this revival does come in some sense from this idea that Jewish food that harkens back to a time before the modern state of Israel even existed has a certain nostalgic appeal. Now, whether any of that, like, aside. Yes, like, aside from the, all the trends you talk about, the maximalism, the cholesterolism or whatever it is, like there is something that feels a little less like if you\u2019re going to do Jewish food now, like, I\u2019m thinking of a restaurant like Cafe Landwer, which has the sort of deli type food, but also has these Israeli influences. But whether there\u2019s something about, like, this is Montreal, this. You know what I mean? Like whether there\u2019s some aspect of it that explains why that feels right in this moment. Not that, and I say this not with any knowledge of where any of these chefs stand on politics, but almost this, like, avoidance of politics.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: I honestly think that might be reading too much into it. It would not.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Be my first time doing so.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: I can\u2019t imagine that that\u2019s. And I can\u2019t speak for the chefs, I just can\u2019t imagine that that\u2019s been part of their thought process in putting this together. I think reconnecting with the past, before time, before Israel, whatever, a hundred percent, you know, there\u2019s a reason why people line up around the block to go into Katz\u2019s every single day. When I walk by there, when I\u2019m in New York and I\u2019m.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Is it good? I\u2019ve never actually been.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: It is what it is. But my point is that it\u2019s an experience, and people feel like they\u2019re reconnecting with the past, a New York past, possibly a Jewish past that so doesn\u2019t exist anymore. But they will line up to have that hour of reconnection with the mythical whatever they think it is. So, I think that\u2019s a strong part of it. If there is a dotted line to draw between what you\u2019re talking about and some of these experiences, I think at a time when everything is upside down, people feel threatened. They are going to want to gravitate more towards things that are comforting. So definitely from that angle, I could see how you could have that conversation. But in terms of the chef somehow putting that in the formula, you know, based on politics, I have a little more trouble.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Yeah, I don\u2019t know. I guess I\u2019m not trying to assign agency to any party. It\u2019s more just like, why would this. What\u2019s happening sort of more broadly in the culture? Why? Like, because now it feels like when I see something about a restaurant being Israeli and that\u2019s being played up, it feels. I see this in the context of, like, pro-Israel, philo-Semitic politician patronizes restaurant to show support for, you know, like, that\u2019s the context I see that in. And maybe. I don\u2019t know, I don\u2019t know. But I also wanted to ask. Oh, sorry, go on.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Yeah, no, I was. I was about to say that at the same time, all this is happening, and even though this is a slightly different topic, there is a chef who\u2019s opening a chain of Israeli restaurants that started in Israel, went to New York, and now is in Toronto. The name escapes me, of course, but they\u2019re opening more and more and more restaurants. Like the giant fried cauliflower is their signature.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: It\u2019s that one that was just attacked in Melbourne, actually. Miznon.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Yeah, but they\u2019re, you know, their people are eating there, they\u2019re growing. And again, we need to keep in mind that the moment that we\u2019re in, certainly there are organized protests and boycotts, but there\u2019s also a lot of individual people acting out, disconnected necessarily from any political movement and throwing things at a restaurant, firing a gun. So if that reflects they\u2019re not necessarily part of a bigger organized movement against these restaurants, you know, you have a lot of, a lot more individual actors now doing what they want to do and acting out against their perceived enemies. And if the perceived enemy happens to be a restaurant with a Jewish owner, a chef, that\u2019s what they\u2019re going to do. They\u2019re going to throw paint. It could be a 15-year-old who thinks they\u2019re doing something righteous. So, you know, I feel like these situations are so grey right now. It\u2019s really, it\u2019s challenging to connect straight lines between some of the political stuff and some of what these chefs are doing.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Sure. No, I think that makes sense. And I wanted to ask all about the cultural appropriation discourse, but I think our time may have run out, so I may just have to write about it and drone on for the people who read that. But what are you working on now, and where can we find you?<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Well, I have to, I have to pitch my next CJN story. Right now. I\u2019m more New York Times real estate stories. I\u2019m actually wrapping up Whistler, BC as we speak, where $3 million buys you a house in really, really bad shape.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: And I will find another use of my $3 million.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Yeah, just FYI. And I read about real estate for Mansion Global, which is part of Dow Jones and a bunch of other places. So travel for afar occasionally here and there. So tell your friends.<\/p>\n Phoebe Maltz Bovy: All right. Well, thank you so much, Michael Kaminer, for coming on the Jewish Angle. This has been fantastic.<\/p>\n Michael Kaminer: Thank you. This was fun.<\/p>\n Show Notes<\/p>\n Credits<\/p>\n