Before she said a word about paying off debt or investing, financial educator Bernadette Joy would ask her clients to draw a picture of themselves in retirement. \u201cWhere are you? Who are you with? What are you doing?\u201d she would ask.<\/p>\n
No one drew themselves on a megayacht or private plane, Joy said. Instead, she saw depictions of nature and time spent with family.<\/p>\n
People need a vision worth saving for, according to Joy. For her, that vision was travel, spending time with friends and having more time for hobbies like dance classes.<\/p>\n
She credits that vision, along with her Crush financial philosophy<\/a>, a willingness to pick up side gigs and thrifty habits like sharing a car, with allowing her and her husband to step back from full-time work this year at just 40.<\/p>\n \u201cI\u2019m saying \u2018no\u2019 a lot more than I ever have,\u201d she said. \u201c\u2018No\u2019 to things I used to have to say yes to because I needed the income, the opportunity, the validation.\u201d That\u2019s allowed her to say yes to adventures like trying out standup comedy and following the K-pop band BTS on tour.<\/p>\n Joy, who worked as a recruiter before founding her coaching business in 2020, went from having $300,000 in debt to being financially independent in 10 years, a journey she has shared with her 43,000 followers and detailed in her Oprah Daily- and New York Public Library-lauded book, Crush Your Money Goals.<\/p>\n She is part of a vibrant crop of coaches and influencers who, while they may not have traditional credentials, offer experience-driven, love-it-or-hate-it advice in lieu of hands-on money<\/a> management. Some of these new voices peddle dubious claims \u2013 no, day trading will probably not make you rich. But many, like Joy, say they are bringing much-needed transparency, representation and real-world nuance to a topic long dominated by privileged gatekeepers who may fail to address the emotional and psychological dimensions of money.<\/p>\n These are the subjects of a new Guardian series, Money whisperers.<\/a><\/p>\n \u201cMy clients are not struggling because they don\u2019t know what a Roth IRA is,\u201d Joy said. \u201cThey\u2019re struggling because they\u2019re overwhelmed, their spending doesn\u2019t match their goals or they\u2019ve never actually sat down to define what \u2018enough\u2019 looks like. That\u2019s where I come in.\u201d<\/p>\n The Guardian caught up with Joy to talk about the math behind early retirement, her take on when not to invest in a 401(k)<\/a> and the best thing she ever bought. This interview took place over several conversations and was edited for length and clarity.<\/p>\n How did you go from having $300,000 in debt to being financially independent in 10 years?<\/p>\n We have lived significantly below our means. The house that I bought [last year] was $375,000, even though we had enough money for a $1m house. Before that we had a one-bedroom apartment in Charlotte that cost $1,900 a month. We drive a $25,000 Hyundai Sonata.<\/p>\n We have budgeted every month consistently for 10 years, and prioritized investing<\/a> once we paid off all the debt \u2013 the gains and dividends from our stocks have become an income stream. We were also very strategic about our real estate: we bought and sold three different homes in North Carolina and were able to make decent gains on each of those.<\/p>\n This year, you announced to your followers that you were stepping back from work and retiring at age 40. How much money did you have in the bank? And how much were you earning before leaving full-time employment?<\/p>\n We\u2019re at $2.1m in net worth, which is mostly in stocks. $400,000 of it is our primary residence. We also have about $250,000 sitting in cash so that we don\u2019t have to pull from our investments at this moment.<\/p>\n Last year, my husband, AJ, [an IT project manager] and I earned a combined $294,000.<\/p>\n That\u2019s about three times the median income<\/a> for a two-person household in the US. You\u2019ve also posted about not having children or a mortgage, since you paid for your home in cash. What can others gain from your experience?<\/p>\n We weren\u2019t high earners when we started this journey. Ten years ago, we were earning a combined $125,000. The frugal habits we learned when we weren\u2019t making a lot of money have carried over so that when we started making more money, we were able to put more of it away in savings. We haven\u2019t inflated our lifestyles even though we earn significantly more than when we first started.<\/p>\n How did you figure out how much you would need to retire?<\/p>\n It\u2019s a little bit of faith. My target number was $2m, and the thought process was $1m for my husband and $1m for myself.<\/p>\n What I did, and what I instruct [others] to do, is to lay out your five basic monthly living expenses: housing, utilities, transportation, health (health insurance as well as other expenses like fitness classes and supplements), and food. You multiply that by 12, and you multiply that by 25, and you get what your retirement number is supposed to be.<\/p>\n The next step would be to take that number and say, what would change in retirement? Would I live in a smaller house? Would I eat out less? And calculate it again.<\/p>\n For us, our basic living expenses are about $4,000 a month. By that rule, we would need [a combined] $1.2m, assuming we didn\u2019t spend anything else other than our basic living expenses. But I don\u2019t just want to stay at home. I want to be able to go to concerts. I was like, let me have a little bit of cushion.<\/p>\n You\u2019re referencing the 4% rule, which is a much-debated rule of thumb<\/a> that says if you invest an amount of money equal to your yearly expenses times 25, you can live off of it for 30 years in the worst-case market performance \u2013 and many more in the best case. Would you recommend that as a benchmark?<\/p>\n I would. It\u2019s easy math, and it\u2019s a conservative number that has some room for error.<\/p>\n You\u2019re still posting online, hosting events<\/a>, coaching and seeking opportunities to be an angel investor. How many hours do you work a week? What does retirement mean for you?<\/p>\n I\u2019m working about 20 hours a week between my coaching clients and organizing the upcoming Plutus Impact Summit<\/a>. Retired means I\u2019m saying no a lot more than I ever have. No to things I used to have to say yes to because I needed the income, the opportunity, the validation. I\u2019m not chasing any new customers or clients.<\/p>\n Is there anything about saving for retirement you wish you had learned earlier?<\/p>\n When I had access to 401(k) with an employer match, I wish I had maxed it out. Not just up to the match, but the full amount I was allowed. [In 2026, US workers can contribute up<\/a> to $24,500 of income from their paychecks.] I could have retired even earlier if I had just put more money into my 401(k). I would also have saved a bunch of money on taxes.<\/p>\n What\u2019s a common piece of money advice that drives you crazy?<\/p>\n I don\u2019t think people with credit card debt should be investing in the stock market, especially people who don\u2019t have any savings. I think it\u2019s irresponsible for financial educators to be telling people you should put money you can\u2019t afford to lose into the stock market.<\/p>\n Never? Not even in a 401(k) or another type of retirement account? Some experts argue<\/a> that you should at least contribute as much as your employer will match, as that\u2019s essentially a 100% return on your investment.<\/p>\n No, and I feel very strong about this. The employer match is great. On paper, it\u2019s a 100% return. But if someone has high-interest credit card debt and no savings, their biggest problem is not missing out on a match. Their biggest problem is fragility.<\/p>\n They\u2019re one emergency, one layoff or one life event away from going deeper into debt with no options. And money in a 401(k) is not easily accessible without penalties. [In most cases<\/a>, withdrawing from a 401(k) before the age of 59\u00bd triggers a 10% penalty plus ordinary income tax on the amount withdrawn.] So you\u2019re effectively locking money away while your financial foundation is unstable.<\/p>\n I\u2019ve seen this play out in real life. People stay in jobs they hate, delay leaving unhealthy relationships or take on more debt because their money is tied up in retirement accounts they can\u2019t touch. So my priority order is: Build a basic cash cushion, eliminate high-interest credit card debt and then invest, including capturing the employer match.<\/p>\n What\u2019s the worst purchase you\u2019ve ever made?<\/p>\n I don\u2019t want to say my MBA (which cost over $100,000, easily) was the worst, but what I paid for it v what I got out of it was not in equilibrium. Most of what you learn in building a business is trying stuff and failing and not doing that again.<\/p>\n And the best?<\/p>\n I just bought my first long-term home in August. We paid for it in cash. It turns out: when you don\u2019t have to get a mortgage, buying a home is really not that challenging. Now that\u2019s going to sound insensitive, but I just need to remind: It took a decade of really consistent money habits and intentional planning to be able to finally buy a home for me and my husband and pay for it in cash. I\u2019m very proud of that.<\/p>\n One last thing, you posted online recently<\/a> that eating out can be good for your budget. Help me understand!<\/p>\n For me, as an Asian American, food is one of the ways that I\u2019m able to connect with my culture in a more affordable way than buying a ticket to the Philippines or to Korea.<\/p>\n I\u2019m also just a cheap eater. I\u2019m good with non-fancy restaurants.<\/p>\n Four key takeaways from Bernadette Joy:<\/p>\n Create a detailed vision of your dream retirement<\/a> so you have a clear goal to work toward.<\/p>\n Calculate your investment target by multiplying your yearly expenses by 25.<\/p>\n If you have access to a 401(k), contribute as much as you can \u2013 unless you have credit card debt!<\/p>\n Keep a budget and live below your means.<\/p>\n