In the inaugural episode of Kid Cudi’s podcast Big Bro, Kylie Jenner confessed to being a gamer. She’s a lifelong devotee of The Sims, which makes sense, because Jenner is the youngest of many siblings and The Sims is a game where you can create your siblings in a virtual sphere, put them in a room, and then delete all the doors. On her May 13 episode of Therapuss With Jake Shane, Jenner explains that her gamer bona fides have expanded. First, she tells the comedian and podcast host that she played the first Halo and had a GameCube as a kid, and then she confesses that she recently bought a Switch and has been playing Breath of the Wild, which is “like, one of the best games ever.” Though her concept of the Breath of the Wild lore is a little muddied (Gandorf … Ganon … who’s counting?), Jenner says she’s been playing for “days and hours,” having beat one Divine Beast.

Jenner’s episode of Therapuss comes on the heels of her appearance at the Met Gala (which she teases in conversation with Shane) and a much-discussed “get ready with me” video she filmed while on her private plane — two of the least relatable things a person can do in modern society. For years, Jenner didn’t seem more or less relatable than the rest of the Kardashian-Jenner crew, but as she’s inched toward a different kind of spotlight over the past few years through her relationship with Timothée Chalamet, it feels as though there’s been a concerted effort around “rebranding” Jenner as a more approachable Kardashian. She was in The Moment! She’s doing podcasts! She’s going to Knicks games! She’s a gamer who loves smoking cigarettes! None of these are explicitly relatable in the traditional sense, but these suggest a kind of approachability that other Kardashian-Jenners can get nowhere near. Can Kourtney say she recently “rewatched” the Denis Villeneuve film Enemy? Probably not.

But make no mistake — there is no real relatability or approachability for someone like Jenner, and she’s not even really pretending, though her gamer instincts are charming. She tells Shane that her and her mom Kris Jenner’s love language is giving each other bags. “Christmas, Birkin. Birthday, Birkin. And we just — back and forth. Isn’t that beautiful?” Jenner asks. That moment in and of itself has a distinctly apocalyptic feel, but Shane poses, perhaps, the episode’s most crucial question: “Do you remember a before-cameras?” “I do, yes,” Jenner responds, “but not a lot of memories. I was 9 years old, and they were just there one day in the house and everyone made it seem really normal, so it felt pretty natural.” Rather than lean into whether or not she’s relatable to the average person scrolling on their phone, Jenner ought to remind us of the fact that she was functionally a child star, almost without her consent, for nearly a decade before she came of age. She’s not the most normal Kardashian-Jenner; she’s the least normal Kardashian-Jenner, striving to make something for herself in a system that was designed to manipulate her reality for as long as she’s even known.

Later in this episode, Jenner explains her reticence toward leaving her house when she’s home in Los Angeles, explaining that her history with paparazzi is somewhat traumatic. “I don’t even know how I’m like a normal person right now,” she says, the “like” being the key word here. “The things that they would say to me and how they would treat me as a child is diabolical,” Jenner says. “Inappropriate. They would stand in front of my car when I was 16.” She details how the paps would call her a slut and mock her in hopes of getting a scandalous photo. “I was an underage girl by herself. I didn’t have security,” she adds. “I really wanted to not have security. I wanted to be normal. I wanted to be with my friends in the world.”

Part of what’s most appealing about Jenner’s continued public appearances is her desire to want to be normal, even if “being normal” to her means getting on a private jet and going to New York for a single day or trading Birkins back and forth with her mother. Interviews with her shed light on a kind of mundanity that makes sense for a mother of two who hasn’t even turned 30 yet — she doesn’t know what “normal” is more or less than any other 28-year-old, Birkin or not. At the end of her appearance on Therapuss, Shane talks up Jenner’s ability to make people feel at ease, a trait that Jenner’s security told him about when they came to “check out the surroundings” ahead of her recording. “They were like, ‘She’s the best,’” Shane says, a comment that feels especially pointed given Jenner is currently being sued by two former employees. In the episode’s final seconds, the two whisper “I love you” back and forth to each other. The affection feels real, even if everything else is pretend.

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