John Nee knows the comic industry. From WildStorm to DC to Marvel, Nee has been in top positions at comic book publishers across decades of the medium’s history, and has seen the kinds of changes that happened therein when comic books became the main basis for billion-dollar franchises. And accoring to the industry vet, not all those changes have been for the better.

Nee recently sat down for an interview with ICv2’s Milton Griepp, during which the ex-Marvel Comics publisher, ex-DC senior vice president, and longtime partner of comics’ Jim Lee was asked to describe what he felt were the “trends in the interaction between comics and media.”

“I think that civilization peaked,” Nee said, “When Steve [Rogers] caught Mjolnir in Avengers: Endgame, and that it’s been downhill ever since, and that fan service has just become a checkbox in an overall franchise plan, and that standing out has been difficult. I think that things aren’t exciting because there’s nothing to be excited about.”

“Which is a really dour thing to say,” he concluded.