FLORA LICHTMAN: Hey, I\u2019m Flora Lichtman. And you\u2019re listening to Science Friday. When someone steps off a spaceship onto the surface of Mars, what should they do first after the selfie? My next guest and a hundred or so of her scientist colleagues have thought a lot about that question, and they\u2019ve come up with some recommendations. It\u2019s all in a new report just out from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine.<\/p>\n
Here to talk with me about it is the person whose name is at the top of that report. Dr. Lindy Elkins-Tanton is a planetary scientist, a very busy planetary scientist. She\u2019s the director of UC Berkeley\u2019s Space Sciences Laboratory and the head of NASA\u2019s Psyche mission, a $1.2 billion program to investigate the Psyche asteroid. And she\u2019s the co-chair of the committee that came up with the Mars plan, called A Science Strategy for the Human Exploration of Mars. Lindy, welcome to Science Friday.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Thank you so much. It\u2019s great to join you.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: This new report suggests that the top priority for going to Mars is searching for life. How do we do that?<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Yeah. Yes, searching for life is a part of a number of top priorities. NASA asked us to put them in priority order. Number one is search for life. That doesn\u2019t mean that number two isn\u2019t super important. And [LAUGHS] the great thing about this is the samples and the investigations we need to do to search for life are also going to teach us so much more about Mars and also about habitability and what it\u2019s going to be like for humans there.<\/p>\n
Because in the end, isn\u2019t this all about humans? It\u2019s about this unbelievable, gigantic, aspirational, inspirational moment in human history when humans go to Mars, and we actually become interplanetary. And so\u2013<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: But wait, can I ask\u2013 can I press on that?<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Yeah.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Is that what it\u2019s all about? Because you also have dedicated your life to an asteroid, which is not about humans.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: [LAUGHS] Here\u2019s what I believe from the bottom of my heart, in the way that I\u2019ve thought about my whole life, is that everything that humans do is an endeavor about humans.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: [LAUGHS] OK, fair. Look, I\u2019ll be optimistic. When we do send people to Mars\u2013<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: There we go.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: \u2013there we go\u2013 what would that mission look like? Like, how long would they stay? Where would they live? I don\u2019t have any sense of how to picture it.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: So here\u2019s the image that we\u2019re coming up with in concert with NASA. Humans are going to go, launched by a really big, strong rocket. And there are two options for going to Mars, depending on where the orbital dynamics put the Earth and Mars relative to each other at the time.<\/p>\n
There are certain ways to get to Mars where you get to stay on the surface for just 30 to 90 Mars days, let\u2019s say. And then there\u2019s other ways to get to Mars, or another way to get to Mars, where you end up spending 300 to 500 Mars days on the surface before you can come back again. So there are the short stays and the long stays.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Wow.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Right? It\u2019s quite a choice. It\u2019s quite a choice. And so what we\u2019re imagining is that our first human campaign to Mars would be three missions. And the first mission would be a 30-day stay, just to make sure stuff works and look around, and get some initial measurements, and pick up some samples, and take in what it is to be on another planet, and then two more missions on top of that, either a cargo mission or a short mission or a long mission. It\u2019s going to look like staying in the lander or having a sort of permanent habitation. So there\u2019s options, and it would certainly be a building exercise, one mission building on the next.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: What about the premise itself? I mean, if the top priority is looking for life on Mars, do we need people to do that? There\u2019s a cool sample return mission that we could send back.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Oh, I know. I know we so hope those samples come back. That would be so good. Everything that we do in space with humans is done in concert with robots. We call them agents in our report. Anything in that giant spectrum of our technological helpers, it\u2019s going to be humans and agents together.<\/p>\n
But there are still things that humans do so much better. And it\u2019s been shown over and over again in studies, actually. Humans\u2019 eyesight, for example, so much more effective in person than when relayed through a robot. Our ability to make decisions and change our minds and deal with unexpected events, so much more agile.<\/p>\n
And so we need humans there to be looking closely at the things that we\u2019re sampling. We need humans there to repair things that are difficult to repair, to quickly change the plan when something unexpected happens. And so going with humans and robots is going to be so much more effective.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Would you go yourself?<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Would I go? Oh, my gosh. I struggle with that. I think if it was me, just me, I would absolutely go. I love the extreme. I love the unexpected. I love something that\u2019s new. It\u2019s not been done before. But because of friends and family here on Earth, I think I wouldn\u2019t go. I\u2019d rather stay with my friends and family.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Live your life here on the planet we know and love.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Yep. The Earth is always going to be the nicest place to live that humans know of.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Let\u2019s talk about your baby, the Psyche mission.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: The Psyche mission.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: So this is a robotic spacecraft launched to the Psyche asteroid. It left Earth in 2023. It\u2019s on its way, due to arrive 2029.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Yes.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Why Psyche? What\u2019s special about it?<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: One of the great things you get to try to do when you propose a mission to NASA is try to imagine what is the most important science we could do with these precious taxpayer dollars? What\u2019s the thing that really hasn\u2019t been done? And think about the places that humans have sent robots, or in some cases, other humans. So rocky objects, like the moon and Mars and Venus and Mercury. We\u2019ve investigated objects made of gas and ice, icy moons and gas giants, but we\u2019ve never seen an object with a metal surface. And that\u2019s what we think that Psyche is.<\/p>\n
And to me, that was just irresistible. It\u2019s a way that we can, we think\u2013 although who knows when we get there? It could be a total surprise. That\u2019s part of the thrill. We think it\u2019s probably the part of a metal core of a little tiny planet that didn\u2019t become part of our bigger growing planets early in the solar system, but instead got broken up and stranded in the asteroid belt.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Really? It\u2019s the center of a planet?<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Yeah. That\u2019s what we think. Well, we call it a planetesimal, a little tiny planet, something the size of a city or a continent of which there were thousands in the early solar system. They were the feeding material that built up the Earth and the other rocky planets. But some of them didn\u2019t get properly incorporated, and they just got stranded. The leftover bits and pieces of planet-building got stranded in the asteroid belt.<\/p>\n
And so that\u2019s what we think it is. We think it\u2019s part of the metal core, the first generation of cores that ever existed in our solar system. And if we\u2019re right about that, it\u2019s the only core humans are ever going to see, because we\u2019re never going to get to the cores of our planets.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Journey to the center of the Earth, but to Psyche.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Exactly. My husband says we\u2019re going to outer space to explore inner space, which I kind of love. [LAUGHS]<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Why is that interesting?<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: It\u2019s interesting for the fundamental questions of how do we build rocky planets, what are the insides made of. And then, because our magnetic field is created in the Earth\u2019s metal core, and it\u2019s part of what makes our planet habitable, we really want to learn more about the core as we try to learn about what makes other planets habitable in other solar systems.<\/p>\n
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FLORA LICHTMAN: OK, we got to take a quick break, but don\u2019t go away. Because when we come back, how do you actually pull off a mission like Psyche? What does it take to get hundreds of people rowing in the same direction? We\u2019ll find out.<\/p>\n
[MUSIC PLAYING]<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: I\u2019m really interested in the timeline of this mission because it was launched 2023, right?<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Right.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: But you must have been dreaming it up for many years before that.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Hmm, yes.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Yes, and it\u2019s not going to get there till 2029. So that\u2019s a long time to wait. Are you good with delayed gratification? Is that part of your personality?<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: No, not even in the slightest. Not even in the tiniest part. No. [LAUGHS] And I guess I would say, when I got into this business, I really had no idea what I was in for. I had actually never really thought about being the lead of a full-on NASA mission. I was leading academic departments, companies. I was leading teams of people. And then I got an email from two scientists at Jet Propulsion Laboratory saying, we really thought that paper you just published with your colleagues, Ben Weiss and Maria Zuber, was so interesting. We wonder if you\u2019d like to work on a mission proposal to test your scientific ideas in that paper.<\/p>\n
And so speaking of not delayed gratification, my instant answer to that is, yes, I would. Let\u2019s find out what this is about. This sounds great. And so we started on this process back in 2011. And let\u2019s see, three years later, we entered into the NASA competition process with our proposal, and we competed for three years. And we were so excited. And it was unexpected and thrilling to get into step two. And then we had to write a 1,000-page proposal with over 100 people everything that this mission would be.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: That\u2019s a nightmare. Can I just stop for a second?<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Yeah. I know, right?<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: 1,000-page proposal with 100 people\u2013<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: I know.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: \u2013is my definition of nightmare.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: And anyone who\u2019s ever written or edited anything thinks that that is a nightmare. [LAUGHS]<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: I mean, I\u2019m interested in the sort of teams aspect of this. Because collaboration can be hard\u2013 rewarding, but hard. I know you about teams. You have got a book coming out on teams this year. But there\u2019s also this\u2013 there can be a triteness to teamwork makes the dream work. So what interests you about teams? And what have you learned about what makes a good team?<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: I know. It can seem like one of those inspirational photos with the kitten hanging from the bar or something like this.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Exactly, yes.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: No, but what it is, teams are\u2013 that\u2019s the fundamental unit of human experience, is relationships with individual other people. And those relationships get networked into a team. And fundamentally, in our brain, we are village people. We work in teams. We live in teams. Our brains are constantly thinking about the people around us. And that has ended up being, I think, the most interesting thing of everything that I do. I really love the science. But getting people to work together is the hardest thing of all and the most rewarding.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Well, what\u2019s your secret? What\u2019s the secret\u2013<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Oh.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: \u2013sauce, Lindy?<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: I have no secrets, but I have lots of anecdotes. Yeah, so I have this book coming out in the spring. Thanks for mentioning it. And it\u2019s called Mission Ready\u2013 How to Build Teams That Perform Under Pressure. And here\u2019s what I think my most fundamental secret about teams, is that you\u2019ve got to drop the status signaling and the internal sense of hierarchy, and go instead with a deep respect for every other person\u2019s individual expertise and what they\u2019ve got to bring to the table. That way, you end up with the best solution for your project, but also the best outcome for every individual.<\/p>\n
And I\u2019ll give you a little example of how important this is on a spacecraft. You\u2019re building a spacecraft that you\u2019re going to launch off the Earth, and it\u2019s going to fly through space for a decade or more. And no one\u2019s ever going to repair it again, and it has to work. So you got to know what\u2019s wrong soon enough to fix it before you launch. And so we used to say\u2013 on Psyche, we still say it, that the best news is bad news brought early enough to fix it. So when people bring you problems, that\u2019s a gift.<\/p>\n
But bringing problems forward is notoriously dangerous because the messenger often gets shot, as they say. And so you have to make it safe, not just for anyone to bring forward a problem, but for the most junior people to speak up and be heard. Because it\u2019s actually the person who is writing a line of code or soldering the wire who actually knows what\u2019s wrong. They are the ones who can tell you when something is actually wrong.<\/p>\n
And so making sure that the people who sit along the wall at meetings, instead of at the table, get invited to speak, making sure that all the managers listen. And I would say, we were 80% successful with Psyche mission team. But we had some big fails that, more or less, proved my point here.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Like what? Give me an example.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Yeah, so one of our most painful moments on the mission, and one of the most difficult work moments of my life, was when we missed our original 2022 launch date and had to slip to 2023. That sounds like\u2013 so many missions slip. It sounds almost like par for the course, but it\u2019s very expensive and very stressful. These are people who\u2019ve been working flat-out seven days a week to make it to this launch.<\/p>\n
And now, suddenly, they\u2019re told, not only aren\u2019t we ready for this launch, but you have to keep working just as hard for another year. Meanwhile, we\u2019re going to be reviewed, and we might just be canceled. And trying to keep team morale up during that? Whoa. I mean, that\u2019s really hard. And I struggled internally and learned a lot of painful internal lessons.<\/p>\n
But here\u2019s the point of the story. The first, the canary in the coal mine that let us that we weren\u2019t going to make it, is that it turned out a part of our flight software called Guidance, Navigation, and Control was not going to be fully tested in time. You don\u2019t have to know anything about spaceflight to know that you don\u2019t fly without Guidance, Navigation, and Control. It\u2019s totally central.<\/p>\n
And the lesson was that that team\u2013 incredibly hard-working, absolutely on top of everything, experts\u2013 did nothing wrong, missed nothing, had been warning us they weren\u2019t going to be ready for a long time, but the word was not coming up through the team in a way that we could understand. So they would say, we absolutely cannot do this. We need more experienced people and more time, and we need this equipment.<\/p>\n
And the manager would say to the next manager, we are worried about hitting these metrics. I\u2019ll update you again next week. And then that manager would say up to the leadership, we\u2019re pretty confident they\u2019re going to catch up on their metrics.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Yeah, the telephone game of\u2013<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Right?<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Yeah.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Because nobody wants to bring the bad news. And so that failure of that fundamental idea that everyone needs to be able to speak up and be listened to when there\u2019s a problem, we failed at it. The leadership failed at it, and it caused inexpressible pain for the people on that team, who were absolutely spectacular. And it caused us to slip by a year.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: OK, I want to land with this question. I\u2019ve been asking this a lot of our guests lately because the answers are varied and really interesting to me. And it\u2019s kind of big and thinky. So\u2013<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: OK, I\u2019m ready.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Sorry in advance.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: [LAUGHS]<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: What\u2019s the purpose of science, Lindy?<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Oh. Yeah, this, I have thought about a lot. And knowing that I think about science as a set of tools by which we try to understand what\u2019s around us, one of the ways that we make progress as a species is to understand more about how the world around us works, how we work, how our universe works. And if we can get slightly more lasting answers, slightly more true answers, answers that give us a little bit more of a foothold toward understanding the next step, I think that is what science is good at, is that kind of knowing.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s a misunderstanding if you think that science is just about making absolute truths and knowing all the answers. Because, really, science is knowing all the questions and keeping asking them. Almost everything that we discover as scientists is going to be amended, added to, changed, or completely overturned by new knowledge. But it is a way by which we can keep taking steps. We can grind inexorably closer to some kind of truth and absolute knowledge about things around us.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Dr. Lindy Elkins-Tanton is a planetary scientist. She\u2019s the head of NASA\u2019s Psyche mission and director of UC Berkeley\u2019s Space Sciences Laboratory. Thanks for coming on the show today, Lindy.<\/p>\n
LINDY ELKINS-TANTON: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.<\/p>\n
FLORA LICHTMAN: Me, too. This episode was produced by Annette Heist. And if you like the podcast, but only if you like the podcast, please rate and review the show wherever you listen. It really does help. We\u2019ll see you next time. I\u2019m Flora Lichtman.<\/p>\n
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