Welcome to “On That Note,” a rock-and-roll-centered column that will dive into the big stories, trends, and crazy ideas coming out of the music industry.
“I will go to my deathbed saying they are not New Order and should not be masquerading as New Order. So it’s still very bitter.”
Photo: Getty Images
This year’s Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction class is one of the most inspired in recent memory, and to stress the obvious, an opportunity for some truly insane reunion performances. Sade haven’t been together since they last toured all the way back in 2011, for instance, and we might as well be deciphering every Gallagher-brother tweet for clues as to whether they’ll actually show up when the big day arrives. Joy Division and New Order’s combined induction, though, is another story entirely, and a lot of it is redacted owing to lawsuits. Peter Hook, Ian Curtis, Stephen Morris, Bernard Sumner, and Gillian Gilbert (one of six women out of the 49 total inductees, a lousy percentage) make up their nomination; Hook has been in a separate faction from New Order since 2007 because of bitter legal battles about name trademarks and royalties. It’s a bizarre hate rhombus, if you will. “The only thing I’ve not enjoyed is people asking me about the others,” Hook, a co-founder of both bands, tells me. “I’m trying to forget them, to be honest.”
Hook, who will be touring America this fall with his band the Light — their setlist consists of the JD/NO catalogue — plans to enthusiastically attend the ceremony in November. He hasn’t been in contact with the three surviving members, who continue to actively tour under the New Order name. “It’s my 50th year as a musician this year,” he notes. “I’ve watched younger and younger people come to our gigs. For them, our music still has appeal.” While we all should probably bet against something grand occurring on that Rock Hall stage, Hook won’t deny the possibility of a potential … well, anything with the estranged trio.
“Do you think Donald Trump could make peace with New Order? He seems to be handing out peace all across the world. He may as well put us on his list,” he says with a laugh. “It’s such a rough world at the moment,” Hook continues. “We need the Hall of Fame just so we can all take our minds off it. Relax and watch something a little frivolous. What’s happened to frivolity? That’s what we need more of.”
I’ve been waiting a long time to say this: Congratulations on being inducted, an award that’s 20 years too late. How has this past week been for you?
It’s obviously better late than never. It’s been absolutely fine. I’ve been quite humbled by how it’s like a landslide. I’ve been like, Wow, because it was our third time nominated. Strangely, there was an aspect of getting used to it and expecting to be disappointed. The problem I have is that one of my very close friends had an exhibit at Cleveland’s Rock Hall museum, and this exhibit had been there for 20-odd years. It was always his dream for us to be in. I went and did a talk there once, which was nice. I suppose, over the years, you’ve had a lot to contend with, but ironically, now that we’re apart, it does sort of take on a different meaning and different feel. If we were together as New Order, it would’ve probably been quite easy to ignore it because you’re just getting on and doing what you’re doing. But because we’re apart, and also the two aspects with being Joy Division and New Order, it does make it special but complicated. There’s been no conversation between me and the others about it.
I guess I understand the logic of melding Joy Division and New Order into one unified project. But to your point, is there a part of you that would’ve enjoyed getting inducted two times, like your fellow classmate Phil Collins?
God knows what’s going to happen when we bloody get there. From my point of view, it’s the fans that have done this. It’s a great accolade, and I’m so happy that they’ve had the heart and soul to do it for us, despite us. And I must admit: The interesting thing about Joy Division is that if you look at the three members of Joy Division that are left — me, Barney, and Steve — then the songwriting force behind Joy Division was very much in evidence in New Order all the way through New Order’s career. That never changed. In a funny way, the music changed, but we’re still the same guys that wrote the Joy Division stuff with Ian. There’s a big thread that’s going through it. I know there are problems between the members and you all delight in things like that, don’t you know?
Trust me, I love a good feud, but I don’t delight in this particular one.
In a funny way, it’s our problem. Your problem was getting us in. It’s our problem how we act. When I was asked if I was going to go, I said, “Of course. Like, I’m not going to give up a few days here and go to Los Angeles?” No chance, mate. Have you seen the weather here in England? Barney did once say to me, “You would go to the opening of a bloody envelope.” So that hasn’t changed.
Joy Division has been eligible since 2004. In those subsequent years before you earned a nomination, were you at all thinking, What the hell is going on in this organization?
I never really lost hope. The thing is, when we’re talking about something as individual as musical taste, how many people are in the world? And how many of them agree with you? Not a lot, is it, when you’re looking at that size? So while you may wonder and can be cynical, shall we say, about other musicians’ achievements, we do realize that everybody has different tastes. What you try and do in the world is get through and let everybody have their enjoyment.
Ultimately it’s a great accolade and it’s been amazing how many of my friends have been moved by it. But you’ve still got to pick up after the dog, don’t you? And you’ve still got to sweep the leaves off your patio, and you still have to argue with your next-door neighbor. It’s wonderful. But life still goes on around it. It’s tricky because of the others, the antagonism, and the legal challenge, which ended up being much less satisfactory than I’d hoped. It still hangs over you like a cloud. There’s a lot of bad feelings. I will go to my deathbed saying they are not New Order and should not be masquerading as New Order. So it’s still very bitter. I don’t know if they’ve come to terms with it. I have no idea about them whatsoever.
You posited last year that the reason it took so long to get an induction was because of the weird relationship between the two halves and the fact that they had no interest in campaigning for the honor. For all I know, that could be true. But electronic and dance music has historically been ignored by the Rock Hall. Do you feel there was ever a genre bias at play?
That’s an interesting point. Maybe it might be they just didn’t get in because they didn’t have the following. Looking at Oasis and Phil Collins: These are very, very popular musicians that have spoken to a lot of people. If you’re going to look at Oasis fans, I suppose you’d have to say that Oasis are much bigger than New Order and Joy Division. Not from a musical point of view, but certainly from a popular point of view. It’s a leveler in some ways. But to your question, I’ve not noticed any bias. As a member, I hate to think of them having any bias. It’s a nice thing to fling about, being in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. In a funny way, cerebrally, we were all there. God, you look at Iggy Pop. Who could be more rock and roll than Iggy Pop?
New Order ended up putting out an appreciative statement that read, in part, “Not bad for a couple of bands that were never entirely sure what they were doing.” Did you like what they wrote?
It’s the usual bollocks they put out. The more interesting thing is that it said it was from New Order, without me. It wasn’t “from New Order.” This is the contradiction. I own 25 percent of the New Order name, and they put a statement out in my name without including me in it. They also put that statement on the Joy Division page, and yet they didn’t put my statement up on the Joy Division page. It’s the same bollocks every time.
This is like when Roger Waters and David Gilmour were fighting over the Pink Floyd website. It seems small, but it’s a much bigger issue of control and messaging.
That’s exactly it. When we were going through it, Warner Bros. actually said, “Why don’t we use the Pink Floyd formula?” They told me the Pink Floyd formula, and I said, “I’m not surprised that Roger is moaning, because your formula is shit.” It was ridiculous. There are always record companies that are not good parents when it comes to things like this. You need a not-very-nice, grizzled headmaster who’s been in the business for about 50 years to come in and give you all a clout round the head with no fear of prosecution. That’s the difference, isn’t it? The playground squabbles should be sorted out with a good clout round to the head. Don’t be so bloody stupid. I mean, I’m not going to play down what happened between us. Them taking the New Order name, I felt, was disgusting and wrong. It caused me and my family a lot of problems. It also was barbarically expensive. It was a ridiculous waste of time. And they did that rather than sit down and try and talk about it, where it was just sneaky. It’s still difficult, and it still hurts.
In the video you released after the news became public, you said that you would be attending the ceremony. Led Zeppelin and Talking Heads used their Rock Hall inductions as an occasion to reunite, and those bands were just as fractured to where you all stand now. I’ll just be direct and ask: What’s the likelihood you all can put all that aside for one night only for this award?
We could. I mean, at 70 years old, I’m not a very fast runner, and I’m sure they aren’t. It would look ridiculous chasing each other around the Hall of Fame. Being in the same building, fine. I keep wondering why some festival promoter hasn’t put us both on a bill. I cannot believe that some bright spark hasn’t tried that, although, I don’t know, maybe there’s a clause in their contract that doesn’t allow shit like that. There’s certainly no clause in mine. I’m ready anytime to take that on. I’ll be there, and whatever happens will happen. You can come and visit me in jail.
You also rocked a fabulous Oasis T-shirt in your celebratory video. Can you tell me more about your relationship to the band and why you gave them some love?
I bought it in the sale rack at Marks & Spencer for six quid. I wore it that night because it was the first on my rack. As I was leaving, I thought, Shit, I need a T-shirt. I’ll wear that one for a laugh. Oasis performed their first-ever gig when they were called Oasis supporting me when I was touring with Revenge. It was in a tiny little club just outside Manchester. Liam Gallagher spoke to me that night and said, “We’ve got a new name now. We were called the Rain, but now we’ve got my brother on guitar.” I was like, “Oh yeah? Whatever,” being the grizzled old rock veteran that I was at that point. And, of course, they went on to achieve what they did. My brother actually videoed them playing that night, and — get this — he can’t find the tape. He told me, “If I had a pound for every time I’ve been in that loft looking for it, I’d be a very rich man.” So my history with Noel and with Liam is a long one. We’ve rubbed shoulders many, many times. They’re very magnanimous in their praise for Factory Records, Joy Division, and New Order. Let’s face it: We should think, If Oasis can get back together, then anybody can do it. Maybe on the induction night, they’ll go and bang our heads together.
Besides Oasis, do you have deeper connections to the other inductees? Any crazy nights out with Billy Idol or Sade Adu?
I do feel like we should have had a run-in with Billy Idol, because we just missed him in our heyday in the ’80s. In that decade, we were in America and in Los Angeles a lot of the time. Billy Duffy from the Cult always used to say, “Do you want to come out and we’ll go for a ride? Billy Idol is coming.” And we’d go, “Nah, nah.” We didn’t do motorbikes. He was knocking around with Mickey Rourke like a proper biker gang, and we never got to share it. So I’ve never met Billy Idol despite being a fan. I think he’s a real character. I like Generation X, Tony James, and that punk aspect of his life. It’ll be nice to meet him at last. My God, we’re all survivors. We’ve all dealt with our fair share of accidents, I hate to say. I was a Genesis fan and like Phil Collins, but we ended up with Peter Gabriel in the divorce. We ended up using his Real World Studios all the time. We’re all cut from the same cloth, I suppose. It’s always nice to realize that what was hard work is rewarded and appreciated by anybody. It’s been wonderful over the five generations.
Most Rock Hall ceremonies have a “super jam” where many artists come together to perform a beloved song from an inductee. Is there a song that comes to mind from your fellow inductees that you feel would be a great fit for such a thing?
Let’s do “Bring Your Daughter … to the Slaughter” from Iron Maiden.
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