“I think it’s incredibly challenging,” Luxon replied, before Gower pushed for a definitive answer.
“Well, you can call it … We inherited a crisis, but it is very challenging. It was incredibly difficult.”
Hipkins, while acknowledging Labour led the country through “a global pandemic”, said Luxon was in “denial about the extent of the crisis” in the health system and blamed the current Government for failing to address the pressures.
“The health system has never been under more pressure than that. And our health workers, our doctors and our nurses, coped with that remarkably well,” Hipkins said.
“And all you have done as a Prime Minister is attack them.”
Gower asked Luxon whether his goal was to end emergency patients being treated in corridors.
“Yes, Paddy, that’s the goal,” Luxon replied.
“What we’re doing is we’re investing very strongly in emergency departments infrastructure.”
Luxon was pushed on his refusal to work with Opportunity after Gower presented a scenario in which the party held the balance of power after the election.
Luxon said National had ruled out working with Opportunity because of its support for a land tax.
“We are a party that instinctively believes that New Zealanders should keep more of their own money. And as a consequence, that is why we’ve ruled them out,” Luxon said.
Hipkins also thought Luxon wouldn’t talk to Opportunity.
“I don’t think Christopher will talk to them. I think his colleagues will remove him the day after the election and whoever replaces him will talk to them.”
Luxon was then pressed as to whether he would resign as leader rather than talk to Opportunity.
“That’s a ridiculous question. It’s a hypothetical question because we’re sitting here out from November 7,” he replied.
“It’s not a consideration. I’m serious about making sure I get New Zealanders to understand the choice between a Labour-led coalition with four parties and six leaders.”
The Chrises traded further barbs over revelations that Green Party and Te Pāti Māori MPs met with Mongrel Mob members at a gang pad.
Hipkins didn’t rule Te Pāti Māori out of potential coalition negotiations, but reiterated that it would not hold relevant law-and-order portfolios.
“That doesn’t make any sense,” Luxon replied.
“You’re going to be discussing justice issues in a Cabinet with 20 people. You’re going to discuss law and order and justice issues with 20 people.”
Hipkins responded by accusing Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters of making racist comments about Indians.
Luxon appeared to interrupt: “You’ve got partners that want to be in coalition with the Mongrel Mob, my friend.”
Tonight’s debate comes following two prior debates between the pair over the last fortnight.
Last week’s debate, hosted by the Herald, featured Hipkins ruling out the Greens or Te Pāti Māori from holding the Police and Corrections portfolios in a future Government after MPs from those parties posed for photos with Mongrel Mob members.
Hipkins said it wasn’t appropriate members of those parties went to a gang pad: “No, I don’t condone it. I think it was a bad judgment.”
Luxon leapt on the development, resurfacing criticisms he’d used in 2023 when he described Labour as “soft on crime”.
“Just imagine what a Cabinet table looks like with those characters around a Cabinet table with him there,” Luxon said.
Earlier in the debate, Luxon said Hipkins got “a new coalition member today, it’s the Mongrel Mob”.
“He’s got two of his party coalition partners, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori out there campaigning with them.”
Tonight’s debate follows the release of two polls today.
The 1News-Verian poll, released this evening, had National on 32%, Labour on 27%, the Green Party on 16%, Act on 11%, NZ First on 8%, Opportunity on 7% and Te Pāti Māori on 0.7%.
This morning’s Post/Freshwater Strategy poll, with Infrastructure NZ, had Labour on 28.7%, National on 27.6%, the Green Party on 14.3%, NZ First on 11.8%, Act on 9%, Opportunity on 5.4% and Te Pāti Māori on 2%.