Scotland’s First Minister has faced weeks of criticism after he said the UK Government’s decision to end the pensions triple lock from 2030 proved that Unionist pledges during the 2014 Scottish independence referendum were “absolute rubbish”.
“We have been taken out of the European Union, and we are now going to lose our pensions,” Swinney told MSPs during First Minister’s Questions last month, adding: “Scotland needs to have independence.”
In an interview with Kuenssberg on the BBC’s flagship political show on Sunday, Swinney clashed with the host after she accused him of “scaremongering” in a bid to drive up support for independence.
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“You said in the Scottish Parliament, ‘We are going to lose our pensions, Scotland needs independence’,” Kuenssberg said.
“It is not true that pensioners in Scotland are going to ‘lose our pensions’, as you said.
“Altering the triple lock means potentially slowing the rate of increase, that does not mean losing our pensions. Let’s be clear about that.”
Swinney replied: “Pensioners are going to lose out to the tune of £2000 in Scotland as a consequence of the changes to the triple lock. That’s people losing out on their pensions.
“So that’s the hard reality, the implications of what the Prime Minister is proposing.”
Kuenssberg then replied, saying the First Minister must be “very clear” about his argument as he has gotten himself “into a spot of bother on this”.
She added: “There have been people in the other parties and independent institutions like the Institute for Fiscal Studies, that very well respected number crunchers, who’ve made it clear that what you said is not true.
“It is scaremongering, is it not, to say that people will lose their pensions and therefore Scots need independence.”
Laura Kuenssberg (Image: BBC)
Swinney replied: “Well, people are going to lose their entitlement to pensions that they were promised.”
At which point the BBC host interrupted the First Minister, saying: “You know it’s about slowing down the rate of increase. It’s not about losing money.”
Swinney tried to continue by Kuenssberg cut him off. He was then able to reply: “The Treasury makes it clear in their analysis that there is a sum of money that is not going to be delivered as a consequence of the abolition of the triple lock, that translates into £2000 per annum per pensioner in Scotland.
“So that is people losing out, and I’m simply pointing out the implications on an issue that was solemnly at the heart of the referendum campaign in 2014, where people on the No side were making the case for voting no to protect pensions, and here we find ourselves.”
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The SNP leader continued to say that “pensions are being eroded …” but was cut off once again by Kuenssberg.
She said: “You don’t think you’re being in any way misleading saying that, even though people like the Institute for Fiscal Studies and all your political rivals say you are being misleading?
“It’s not true to say Scottish pensioners will lose their pensions as a result of an alteration to the triple lock. That’s not true.”
Swinney then replied: “Pensioners in Scotland are going to lose out because of the abolition of the triple lock.”
Kuenssberg cut off the First Minister once again, saying: “The triple lock is not being abolished.”
The BBC host then swiftly said: “Let’s move on.”
The pensions triple lock states that the state pension must rise in line with wages, with inflation, or by 2.5%, whichever is highest. Prime Minister Andy Burnham has said that, from 2030, the link to wages will be changed in order to fund a National Care Service in England.
The change is expected to save the UK Government £50bn a year by 2050.
Prime Minister Andy Burnham has pledged to make Britain a world leader in dementia research (Peter Byrne/PA)
The exchange comes after Scottish Tory leader Russell Findlay accused Swinney of misleading parliament in a letter to the First Minister last week.
“In response to my questions about the SNP’s out-of-control benefits bill, you referred to the UK Labour Government’s decision to scrap the state pension triple lock,” Findlay wrote.
“You stated that ‘we are now going to lose our pensions’. This inaccurate and irresponsible comment is inevitably causing concern to Scottish pensioners.”
Swinney dismissed misleading Parliament and instead insisted that UK state pensions were at threat from Labour policies.
“I’ve got nothing to explain to Parliament about this issue,” he said.
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“Scottish pensioners were led to believe there was a triple lock going to be in place, and that gave them legitimate expectations about the level of their pension.
“They’re going to lose out on that because Andy Burnham is removing the triple lock. So that’s the hard reality that pensioners in Scotland are having to face up to, having been promised in 2014 that their pensions were safe.
“Their pensions have just been undermined by the Labour Government.”