{"id":318738,"date":"2025-12-16T09:02:27","date_gmt":"2025-12-16T09:02:27","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/uk\/318738\/"},"modified":"2025-12-16T09:02:27","modified_gmt":"2025-12-16T09:02:27","slug":"deftones-white-pony-the-story-behind-the-album","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/uk\/318738\/","title":{"rendered":"Deftones’ White Pony: the story behind the album"},"content":{"rendered":"

In the summer of 2020, as Deftones’ career-defining, hugely influential third studio album White Pony turned 20 years old, Metal Hammer sat down for an interview with the band to discuss that record’s legacy, the wild adventures they were having around that time and why, decades on, they made the right decision in dodging the nu metal<\/a> bullet.<\/p>\n

\n

\"A\n<\/p>\n

An unbearable, sharp pain in the head. A horrible realisation. A torrent of blood. Deftones<\/a> drummer Abe Cunningham, relieved at finally finishing White Pony after four months of nonstop recording and partying, had ripped off his clothes and jumped backwards onto his bed for the best sleep ever. Only, there was a double-ended knife sticking out of the fireplace he was using as a headboard. He\u2019d stabbed it in there a few weeks earlier, just to be cool. Now, he\u2019d impaled himself.<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

\u201cIt was terrible,\u201d he laughs today. \u201cI was naked, and I just knew. \u2018Fuck! I just hit that fucking knife, that goddamn knife!\u2019 And I froze up. There was blood everywhere.\u201d<\/p>\n

You may like<\/p>\n

It was a fitting conclusion to the chaotic creative process for one of the greatest heavy albums of the 21st century. There had been bloodshed, in-fighting, videogame obsessions, cocaine-fuelled parties and unexpected celebrity guests, these multiple voices and experiences fuelling the explosion of originality heard across White Pony\u2019s 11 tracks. It was an evolution of their sound, an anomaly in the metal scene, and confusing for their fanbase. No one had seen it coming.<\/p>\n

Deftones had formed in Sacramento in the late 80s and signed to Madonna\u2019s label, Maverick, before releasing their debut album, Adrenaline<\/a>, in 1995. It was a raw outburst of impulsive young energy, taking 90s alt-metal<\/a> and mixing it with unhinged screams and blunt, abrasive riffs. Two years later, follow-up Around The Fur<\/a> bumped up the quiet-loud-quiet dynamics and showcased more range and depth, propelling them to major festival stages and headline tours.<\/p>\n

In many people\u2019s eyes, they were a nu metal<\/a> band. But for album number three, they had something else in mind. Rather than continuing steadily along the same path, or adopting the swagger-filled posturing of rising peers like Limp Bizkit, they pushed into a new universe of endless atmosphere, unearthly textures and abstract lyrics. Instead of putting out party metal, they made ambitious, timeless, mind-expanding music while partying.<\/p>\n

\u201cWe came off a couple of records that were pretty successful, but I felt like we had a lot more to do,\u201d explains vocalist Chino Moreno<\/a>. \u201cA bigger voice, and really no rules.\u201d<\/p>\n

Sign up below to get the latest from Metal Hammer, plus exclusive special offers, direct to your inbox!<\/p>\n

\n

\"Chino\n<\/p>\n

Chino Moreno on tour in 2000 (Image credit: \u00a0Naki\/Redferns via Getty Images)<\/p>\n

If you\u2019d walked into Deftones\u2019 rehearsal studio in midsummer 1999, you would have seen a 10-foot halfpipe. You might have witnessed Chino doing kickflips, or guitarist Stephen Carpenter trying tricks on his bike. \u2018The Spot\u2019 was part workspace and part clubhouse, with Iron Maiden<\/a> posters adorning the walls and a steady stream of friends coming and going, shooting the shit or pulling off shove-its between practice sessions.<\/p>\n

Skating was such a priority that the band even measured how much space they needed to get their road-cases through, and only allowed an extra inch on each side so they could make the ramp as big as possible. \u201cIt was a hangout spot,\u201d smiles Abe. \u201cAll the while, we would just be testing out new music and drinking beer, and having the time of our lives.\u201d<\/p>\n

By this point, Deftones had already begun work on White Pony, and had even displayed the iconic graphic on their backdrop for that year\u2019s Ozzfest<\/a>, their set sandwiched between Slayer<\/a> and Rob Zombie<\/a>.<\/p>\n

You may like<\/p>\n

They\u2019d also been trialling new song Korea, a low-down, grinding pit-crusher. At the tour\u2019s close, Stephen had moved to Los Angeles, while Chino, Abe and turntablist Frank Delgado stayed home in Sacramento, tinkering with ideas at The Spot. A few times a month, Stephen would make the six-hour drive to jam with them. When he was absent, Chino would pick up one of Stephen\u2019s guitars and experiment with it \u2013 something that would later cause friction.<\/p>\n

\u201cI was very green to the guitar, but I just loved playing it,\u201d Chino explains in a soft drawl. \u201cIt\u2019s kind of weird that I\u2019m the singer, because one of my least favourite things to do is to express myself through words, and guitar is a great way to express yourself without having to do that. Although, Stephen wasn\u2019t really too keen on it. He\u2019s always been the guitar player, so I was treading on his ground a little bit. He never really told me not to, but I could tell that he was like, \u2018Well, whatever. Let him get it out of his system, and then we\u2019ll move on.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n

Deftones \u2013 Korea (Official Visualizer) – YouTube
\n\"Deftones<\/p>\n

Watch On <\/a><\/p>\n

That August, they went into The Plant in Sausalito, over the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco. The historic studio had previously hosted the rock\u2019n\u2019roll likes of Stevie Wonder, Prince<\/a> and Santana (\u201cyou try to rest your elbows on the studio wall and get a little bit of that mojo!\u201d laughs Abe).<\/p>\n

While second album Around The Fur was completed in four months, they had been writing White Pony for six before they even had enough songs to fill the record, and were only two-thirds done before they hit The Plant. \u201cWe went into the studio really, really ill-prepared, but I think that was the fun of it too,\u201d remembers Chino. \u201cAs much as we knew we wanted to make a record that was different, we wanted to capture a moment as opposed to going in and knocking it out. We really wanted to experience the \u2018record making\u2019.\u201d<\/p>\n

Experience it they did. The sleepy fishing city of Sausalito is known for its colourful houseboats, where the band lived together: Chino and Abe, Stephen and Frank, and bassist Chi Cheng in a nearby apartment with his wife and son.<\/p>\n

Every day they would ride their bikes to the studio, which boasted a lounge area with a kitchen, a huge television and couches, where they would smoke, drink and obsessively play the videogame Tony Hawk\u2019s Pro Skater. Far from getting the guitar out of his system, Chino was getting deeper into it. He\u2019d sit in the kitchen with a digital recorder, developing his newfound skills.<\/p>\n

\u201cI had a little recording set-up in the kitchen, and we\u2019d throw around ideas real quick, and then do a little bit of work, and we drank a lot of champagne,\u201d he smiles. \u201cWe\u2019d have Mimosa Mondays, and then it turned into Mimosa Tuesdays and Wednesdays and Thursdays. We had a blast, seriously, hanging out and being young adults in a nice studio making a record that we wanted to make. We were living our best life at that time.\u201d<\/p>\n

We\u2019d have Mimosa Mondays…then it turned into Mimosa Tuesdays and Wednesdays and Thursdays.<\/p>\n

Chino Moreno<\/p>\n

Despite only being in their mid-20s, most of Deftones had known each other for years, stretching back to their schooldays. They were as close as brothers, and would drive each other just as crazy. And so it was with Chino and Stephen. The frontman, a fan of electronic music who was discovering new abilities. The guitarist, a Meshuggah<\/a> fan used to taking the lead, who would walk out the studio and threaten to quit.<\/p>\n

\u201cStephen and I\u2026 I don\u2019t think we were trying to outdo each other for competition, but we were trying to inspire each other in a way,\u201d Chino says diplomatically. \u201cSo I\u2019d come up with an idea, and then I\u2019d bring it to him, and he\u2019d say, \u2018Oh, that\u2019s cool. How about this?\u2019 And then he\u2019d come up with something, and would top that idea. And then I\u2019d say, \u2018OK, well what about this?\u2019<\/p>\n

“And top that. Not as a competition, but pushing each other to see how far we can go. And I think that really benefited the record, because there was no way you were going to have this linear-sounding thing, when each of us were trying to see how far we could push each other. Our relationship started to be strained a little bit at that point, but musically I think we prospered.\u201d<\/p>\n

Abe is more direct. \u201cThese guys would just scream!\u201d he laughs. \u201cChi, too. They would scream like fucking crazy. So it was tense, but the funny thing was, Chino just really enjoyed playing guitar. He was not the best guitarist at all, but he was learning, and learning in front of the world. He wasn\u2019t trying to get to Stephen, but Stephen was not happy.\u201d<\/p>\n

Their producer, Terry Date, agrees there were \u201cturf wars\u201d, while he argued about studio time lost to the band\u2019s addiction to Tony Hawk\u2019s Pro Skater. \u201cTerry would come in furious,\u201d remembers Abe. \u201cHis glasses would be all steamed up, and he\u2019d be like, \u2018Goddamnit, get in there!\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n

Yet when Deftones focused, they made some amazing breakthroughs. Terry, who had helmed both their records, initially suggested they consider other producers, in case they wanted a fresh perspective on their music. But after meeting with the likes of Rick Rubin<\/a> and Talking Heads keyboardist\/guitarist Jerry Harrison, the band had opted for him again. They were comfortable with him, he knew how to get the best from them \u2013 and besides, there was no shortage of ideas flying around.<\/p>\n

\n

\"Deftones\n<\/p>\n

Deftones play a KROQ event in Los Angeles in December 2000 (Image credit: Jeff Kravitz\/FilmMagic, Inc via Getty Images)<\/p>\n

Chino and Stephen leaned into their push-pull dynamic to write Change (In The House Of Flies), White Pony\u2019s first single and a career-defining song. Opening with a mournful riff, eerie noises and breathy vocals, it erupted into a climactic chorus with an edge of danger, like staring directly into a beautiful, exploding sun.<\/p>\n

\u201cI knew that it was one of the best songs on the record,\u201d reveals Chino. \u201cI could hear it, and one of the important things about it was that Stephen and I wrote it together; we were playing off each other. So it was very organic, and everybody is represented. Frank\u2019s part in that song is just as important as the drum beat \u2013 that wailing sound that you hear in the background of the verses. It adds this certain cryptic quality to the song that always tugged at you in this weird way.\u201d<\/p>\n

Turntablist Frank Delgado had met Deftones at the beginning of their career, when he was DJ\u2019ing at Sacramento\u2019s Cattle Club. Although he\u2019d contributed to some songs and toured on Around The Fur, he\u2019d only just been appointed an official member, and his imaginative, spacey soundscapes would be crucial in shaping White Pony. He\u2019d hear the band coming up with ideas, dig through records to find something that fit with the key, and figure out a way to use a sample. Sometimes, necessity proved to be the mother of invention: as he couldn\u2019t afford a synthesiser, he\u2019d manipulate a sample to sound like one.<\/p>\n

\u201cOn Change\u2026, it\u2019s a short sample, but I extended it with some guitar pedals that Stephen gave me,\u201d he explains. \u201cAnd then I would play it with the pitch on the turntable to get notes and melodies. So it sounds like a synthesiser, but it\u2019s not.\u201d<\/p>\n

It was the same with Teenager. As Frank didn\u2019t have a drum machine, they used lo-fi hip hop beats from his childhood friend, DJ Crook. It was common for nu metal bands to have DJs, but Frank was doing more than tokenistic scratching. Like the hip hop he loved, and the DIY skateboarding culture the band grew up in, he was borrowing sounds from across the musical spectrum and making them Deftones\u2019 own.<\/p>\n

\u201cWe loved everything and anything, so we would grab and pull things,\u201d says Frank. \u201cIt\u2019s kind of the same way they brought me into their mix; it wasn\u2019t a preconceived notion that they needed a DJ, they just saw there was something there that was working, that was really cool, and pulled it into their world.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cThere were no boundaries of what kind of record we were supposed to make,\u201d states Chino. \u201cAs a band, we weren\u2019t limiting ourselves to, \u2018We\u2019re this four-piece band who makes aggressive rock music.\u2019 We were able to expand.\u201d<\/p>\n

The band\u2019s record deal was what Abe refers to as a \u201ctwofer\u201d: no matter what the sales of the first album, they were guaranteed a second. Having crossed that threshold with success, they felt liberated. \u201cWe had everything to prove but yet nothing at all,\u201d says Abe. \u201cWe only had to prove it to ourselves.\u201d<\/p>\n

Deftones – Change (In The House Of Flies) [Official Music Video] – YouTube
\n\"Deftones<\/p>\n

Watch On <\/a><\/p>\n

Deftones had gone to Hollywood when they finished Around The Fur, but they had never lived in Hollywood. It was about to become their new playground. Relocating to Larrabee Sound Studios for mixing, they took up residence in a mansion Abe says was previously owned by Chuck Berry. \u201cIt had these crazy little mini doors and Scooby-Doo book- shelves, and it was haunted as hell,\u201d he insists. This is where he would have the knife incident.<\/p>\n

The mansion, off Sunset Strip, was also where they\u2019d have friends over to rage all night. If they weren\u2019t at home, they were running riot between the bright streets and dark alleyways of Tinseltown. Deftones already had a reputation; after all, the cover photo of Around The Fur was a bikini-clad woman taken at one of their hot-tub parties. \u201cSome nights were super-wild,\u201d confesses Chino. \u201cI think it just added to what White Pony was. There\u2019s some dark themes on there, certainly hinting at that kind of stuff, and I wouldn\u2019t say it\u2019s a party record by any means, but I think it has\u2026 a little sleazy vibe. And I feel like that\u2019s how we were living. It kind of crawled its way into the music.\u201d<\/p>\n

Now 20 years older and living in different times, they\u2019re unsurprisingly reluctant to disclose details of any X-rated activities. Did they have adult actresses over? Were they going to strip clubs? \u201cYou don\u2019t need me to tell you \u2013 you know exactly what happened,\u201d Abe grins. \u201cWe were fucking young, having a fucking blast, doing a bunch of blow, drinking, partying. Lots of cocaine, tons of it. But it was not everyone in the band.\u201d<\/p>\n

As with Sausalito, they also put in the graft, continuing their \u201cgrab and pull\u201d approach with a string of unexpected guest vocalists. Rodleen Getsic, whose spinetingling screams cleave Knife Prty, was a singer Chino met while playing pool in the studio\u2019s lounge. Late Stone Temple Pilots frontman Scott Weiland, who had just served time for violating probation following a conviction for heroin possession, ended up on Rx Queen after a call from Deftones\u2019 A&R man, Guy Oseary.<\/p>\n

It had these crazy little mini doors and Scooby-Doo book- shelves. It was haunted as hell<\/p>\n

Abe Cunningham<\/p>\n

\u201cThat was kind of a trip,\u201d recalls Chino. \u201cHe wanted Scott to get out of jail, and have something to do that would take him away from whatever he was doing that landed him in jail. I went to his studio in the Valley, and we were listening to Rx Queen, and he had a little harmony idea so he picked up the mic. It\u2019s a total Weiland harmony, something I wouldn\u2019t think to write.\u201d<\/p>\n

The most high-profile turn came from Tool<\/a>\u2019s Maynard James Keenan<\/a> on the windswept, nocturnal Passenger. He had been there when Deftones wrote the song in \u201999, prior to demoing. The day before vocals were due to be recorded, Chino invited him to collaborate.<\/p>\n

\u201cWe sat next to each other in front of the control board, and put the music on. It was really cool the way we wrote it \u2013 we shared a notebook, and he wrote a line, and I\u2019d write a line, and then I\u2019d hand it back to him to write a line, and he\u2019d hand it back to me. So the way you hear the song on the record is pretty genuine to the way we wrote it, where we trade lines. We didn\u2019t really have an idea for what we were making a song about, we just started riffing off each other,\u201d says Chino, sounding incredulous. \u201cEven to this day, I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve worked that way with anybody. I was super-stoked with it.\u201d<\/p>\n

Chino disliked writing lyrics so much that Adrenaline is riddled with garbled vocalisations. Immersing himself in instrumental music, he sought to distance himself from the trends of heavy music, turning instead to abstract phrases. White Pony lurched between vertiginous stories and erotic scenarios, glinting with deathly metaphors for love and power, like a string of woozy fever dreams that left shadows on the brain.<\/p>\n

\u201cMusic with words was a drag to me,\u201d Chino explains. \u201cComing out of what grunge was, and it was \u2018pity life, life sucks, this and that\u2019. And then nu metal, which was sort of the same complaining about how lame the world is. I just didn\u2019t wanna hear that shit anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n

\n

\"Deftones\n<\/p>\n

Deftones at the University of California in Irvine, California in October 2000 (Image credit: Gary Livingston\/Newsmakers via Getty Images)<\/p>\n

White Pony was released on June 20, 2000 \u2013 Chino Moreno\u2019s 27th birthday. Anticipation for the record was such that Deftones appeared on David Letterman that night, performing Change (In The House Of Flies). The band loved the song so much, they had insisted it should be the first single, even though their record label didn\u2019t think it was aggressive enough to lead the album campaign.<\/p>\n

And while it would turn out to be a commercially successful hit, that hesitation was understandable; in a climate where Limp Bizkit<\/a> and Papa Roach<\/a> were some of the buzziest bands around, White Pony was a curveball for fans, who accused Deftones of turning their back on heaviness.<\/p>\n

\u201cThat record wasn\u2019t loved right away,\u201d cautions Chino. \u201cAs much as Deftones fans love it now, they didn\u2019t. Because we were known more as a \u2018nu metal\u2019 band. They were trying to box us into that. White Pony separated ourselves from that genre that was at its peak, so I still felt like we were in an uphill battle to earn our place.\u201d<\/p>\n

The record sold decently, reaching Gold status (500,000 copies) within three months, but Maverick thought it could do better. Claiming there wasn\u2019t an obvious second single, they suggested taking the woozy chorus from Pink Maggit and stretching it into something more up-tempo and marketable. The result was Back To School (Mini Maggit), accompanied by a now-iconic video of Chino rapping while stomping over desks and skating down hallways. White Pony was re-released with Back To School as its first track.<\/p>\n

\u201cThey asked a few times, and then the straw that broke the camel\u2019s back was when I got a phone call from Guy Oseary and he said, \u2018I just got off the phone with Paul Hunter\u2019, who at the time was a huge video director. He had done Britney Spears, Eminem<\/a> videos. And budgets back then were one million dollars starting. They were super-expensive.<\/p>\n

But he said, \u2018You guys do this, we\u2019ll pay for it, blah blah, this and that.\u2019 And at that point I was like, \u2018Alright, whatever, we\u2019ll do it,\u2019\u201d says Chino. \u201cIn retrospect, do I regret it? No, not really. It is what it is. But do I prefer the record the way it was before that song was on it? Yeah.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cWe were pissed!\u201d exclaims Abe. \u201cWe were fucking pissed. How dare you make us change this shit, and try to fit into what\u2019s going on right now?\u201d<\/p>\n

Deftones – Back To School (Mini Maggit) [Official Music Video] – YouTube
\n\"Deftones<\/p>\n

Watch On <\/a><\/p>\n

Acclaim from the establishment came with a Best Metal Performance Grammy for Elite, but Deftones were still trying to navigate their way through a nu metal minefield. The fivesome turned down significant tours with the likes of Korn<\/a>, Papa Roach and Limp Bizkit in an effort to distance themselves from a scene they didn\u2019t see a future in, but they were well aware of how this made them look \u2013 especially in the eyes of the musicians they considered friends.<\/p>\n

\u201cI think they would get bummed, kind of like we were being dicks \u2019cause we didn\u2019t wanna tour with any of them,\u201d admits Chino. \u201cBut now in retrospect, I feel like it was probably one of the most important decisions we had to make. Now, if I see an article in a magazine about nu metal, I\u2019ll scan through it to see if we\u2019re in there. If we\u2019re not, I get so stoked, like, \u2018Wow, we dodged that bullet!\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n

Twenty years on, White Pony is a timeless classic that transcends the boundaries of metal\u2019s tribal subgenres. Artistically, it\u2019s extraordinary \u2013 diverse influences crash in harsh maelstroms or coalesce in melodic ambience, the songs smoothly flowing into each other. Commercially, it has continued to sell steadily, and has shifted three million copies worldwide.<\/p>\n

\u201cWe didn\u2019t know if people would like White Pony, we just did it anyways. And for that reason, I\u2019m really proud of it,\u201d Chino concludes. \u201cBut I also think that\u2019s why it\u2019s still successful, because we followed our instincts.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cI\u2019m proud of that little pony, that\u2019s now\u2026 an older horse!\u201d adds Abe. \u201cIt\u2019s out in pastures, running around free.\u201d<\/p>\n

Originally published in Metal Hammer #337<\/p>\n

Deftones – Street Carp [Official Music Video] – YouTube
\n\"Deftones<\/p>\n

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