This is part two of a two-part series.<\/p>\n
Stephan Bodian is a gifted<\/a> spiritual teacher whose work has brought wisdom<\/a> to countless contemporary seekers in an accessible and deeply transformative way. Founder of the School for Awakening and author of several influential books\u2014including Meditation<\/a> for Dummies (with more than half a million copies sold), Wake Up Now, and Beyond Mindfulness<\/a>\u2014Bodian is widely respected for his rare ability to bridge timeless spiritual insight with modern psychological understanding. Trained as a psychotherapist, Bodian has pioneered a uniquely skillful approach that integrates self-inquiry, non-dual realization, and practical psychological insight. We recently spoke from his home in the Canary Islands about his newest book, Infinite Awakening: A Guide to Nondual Wisdom and the Pathless Path, which offers a comprehensive guide to the \u201cpathless path\u201d of spiritual awakening.<\/p>\n This is the second installment of a two-part conversation. <\/p>\n Mark Matousek: The renowned spiritual teacher, Jean Klein, whom you were lucky to spend time with, was one of the great arbiters of the direct path. How does the so-called direct path differ from other paths? <\/p>\n Stephan Bodian: Most traditional spiritual paths are progressive. You have to keep monitoring the changes. Am I getting better now? Am I getting more aware now? There are markers along the path, and you’re monitoring your progress. The direct approach is more about dismantling the one who is trying to improve, seeing into the unreality, the ephemerality, the emptiness of the one we take ourselves to be. It teaches us to open to the possibility, the very real possibility, that in this moment, you can wake up spontaneously through a pointer, through a question, through a meditation. <\/p>\n MM: There are no stages of awakening on the direct path? <\/p>\n SB: There are stages of awakening but they occur spontaneously. We\u2019re not trying to cultivate them or orchestrate them. In the new book, there\u2019s a whole chapter on the stages of awakening. The first stage is to recognize that I\u2019m not my thoughts. That\u2019s actually an awakening. For many people, it\u2019s a major stage. The next stage, which is probably the biggest shift, is that I am the awareness of my thoughts. And then I discover what that is, this openness<\/a>, and I become more familiar with that as my essential nature. That\u2019s the Kensh\u014d, the experience I had with Jean Klein, the initial shift. <\/p>\n Then the other stages are various levels of getting to the point where we realize the nondual, the truly nondual, which is that thoughts and the objects of thoughts, self and other, inside and outside, subject and object, are not two. That\u2019s the true meaning of nonduality, that which is seeing and that which is being seen are inseparable. There\u2019s just the one gazing into itself.<\/p>\n MM: This can sound vague and grandiose to the uninitiated ear. Folks might ask, what about individuality? What about uniqueness? What about the human creature?” But nonduality does not suggest that we melt into this giant vat of nothingness. Distinctions remain, but the underlying unity takes precedence. Is that correct? <\/p>\n SB: Absolutely. I think that\u2019s really important. It\u2019s one of the hardest things to talk about, because in the Eastern traditions\u2014in Mah\u0101y\u0101na Buddhism and also in the Advaita Ved\u0101nta tradition\u2014there exist what are called the two truths, absolute and relative, universal and individual. At the absolute level, you are consciousness itself. There\u2019s only consciousness, only being. But at a relative level, we are also people, individuals acting in the world with our own gifts, our own talents, our own conditioning that we\u2019re working with, always at an individual level. Both things are true simultaneously. <\/p>\n MM: I’ve noticed a tendency to put the absolute above the relative, which seems to me like a huge mistake. It\u2019s a problem when spiritual seekers start believing that all of the physical world is simply an illusion. <\/p>\n SB: Advaita Ved\u0101nta is known to do that. Fortunately, Jean Klein was influenced by the nondual tantric tradition of Kashmir, which holds that Shiva and Shakti are inseparable. The unmanifest and the manifest, the emptiness and form, are inseparable. One is not better than the other, and they cannot be divided. If we\u2019re caught in form but don\u2019t see the emptiness of it, then we\u2019re going to be seduced by form. On the other hand, if we get caught in the absolute, we spiritually bypass. We can\u2019t have human relationships and can\u2019t navigate the world until we realize that the relative and absolute are inseparable.<\/p>\n MM: Is that what you’re referring to when you talk about each moment of life offering us a “choice point?” That we’re choosing to focus on ego or a more transcendent view? <\/p>\n SB: Interesting question. Yes. Who\u2019s choosing, of course, is the deepest question. At the same time, there\u2019s a way in which we\u2019re being asked to lean in to one or the other. If you\u2019re having an argument with your partner, you\u2019re going to lean in to the relative and live that aspect, that part of your life. If you\u2019re sitting in meditation or having a quiet moment, you\u2019ll lean in that way. We\u2019re constantly going in and out, and they\u2019re constantly interpenetrating one another. The absolute is the essence. Consciousness is the fundamental reality. In that sense, I would say that\u2019s where the emphasis lies.<\/p>\n MM: That\u2019s the choice point?<\/p>\n SB: We\u2019re more likely to keep remembering that consciousness is the fundamental reality, to keep coming back to it. <\/p>\n MM: Let’s talk about discernment on the spiritual path. It’s hard to be discerning in a field where we know so little. Is discernment about trusting our gut? Looking for danger signs? <\/p>\n SB: I think you\u2019re right. We can\u2019t be really deeply discerning until we\u2019ve developed some wisdom, and the wisdom requires that we embark on a journey, on the path. Meditate, be with a teacher, listen to teachings, do self-inquiry, whatever it is. Discernment develops over time. That\u2019s why people do get involved with teachers who take advantage of them and try out paths that may be not appropriate to them. That\u2019s all part of the journey.<\/p>\n MM: A lot of people get stuck, though, don\u2019t they?<\/p>\n SB: They can get stuck there. Certainly. I\u2019ve been with teachers who weren\u2019t very wise and caring and compassionate. I got stuck there for periods of time and learned a lot from it.<\/p>\n MM: In Infinite Awakening, you write about how trauma affects the awakening process. <\/p>\n SB: I go into a lot of detail in the book about this. Trauma can be a hindrance, but it can also be a gift. I do emphasize that as well. People who have been traumatized are suffering, usually more than most of us, and suffering is a great motivator. A deep desire, a deep wish to free themselves of that suffering, drives them along the path. That\u2019s a beautiful thing.<\/p>\n When we talk about letting go of our identification with the separate self, which is the process of waking up, people whose separate selves have been threatened as children may not want to let go. They will be holding on for dear life. The idea or even the experience of ‘no self’ can be terrifying for them. When I had that powerful awakening with Jean Klein, which was blissful and expansive and freeing, I kept cycling back into deep fear<\/a>. I actually would sit on my cushion, and I\u2019d go down into the ground of being, and everything was just expansive and open and no identification, and then all this terror would come up.<\/p>\n I had no idea what was going on. That dropping into the ground of being was terrifying to the part of me that was holding on for dear life, not to be destroyed. I was abused as an infant. I thought my life was over. I didn\u2019t realize that when I was going through those experiences, but I\u2019ve subsequently learned what my life as an infant was like, and the rest of my childhood<\/a> to a lesser degree. It can make waking up, the process that you\u2019re wholeheartedly seeking, quite scary.<\/p>\n