(Music: \u201cNo One Is Perfect\u201d by HoliznaCC0)<\/p>\n
Anne Brice (intro):\u00a0This is\u00a0Berkeley Talks, a\u00a0UC Berkeley News\u00a0podcast from Strategic Communications at Berkeley. You can follow\u00a0Berkeley Talks\u00a0wherever you listen to your podcasts. We\u2019re also on YouTube @BerkeleyNews. New episodes come out every other Friday. You can find all of our podcast episodes, with transcripts and photos, on\u00a0UC Berkeley News\u00a0at news.berkeley.edu\/podcasts.<\/p>\n
(Music fades out)<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Good evening, everyone. Welcome to the Logan Multimedia Center at North Gate Hall. I\u2019m Michael Bolden, Dean of the School of Journalism. Thank you. This is actually our first major event of the academic year and we\u2019re very excited about here at the J School. This is the finale to our AI Journalism and Public Trust Symposium that we\u2019ve co-hosted today with the Pulitzer Center. Thank you to the team at Pulitzer for their partnership and for the Pulitzer affiliated reporters who spoke earlier today about covering AI. And I have to acknowledge, somewhere in the room is the president and CEO of the Pulitzer Center, Lisa Gibbs, my friend who\u2019s seated in the back. So thank you, Lisa, for your partnership.<\/p>\n
Now on to tonight\u2019s headline event. W. Kamau Bell is one of the most incisive voices today on culture and politics. He uses comedy as social commentary. He was the executive producer of the five time Emmy Award-winning CNN docuseries, United Shades of America for seven seasons. He traveled the country talking with people from all parts of the political and cultural landscape. He won a Peabody Award for his Showtime docuseries, We Need to Talk About Cosby, about the comedian celebrity, his infamy and our culture. He\u2019s also the co-author of the New York Times bestselling book, Do the Work! An Anti-Racist Activity Book following his memoir, The Awkward Thoughts of W. Kamau Bell.<\/p>\n
He is no stranger to Berkeley Journalism. In the past, he has recorded right here in our studios just up the hall there. But he and I first met last year in Washington DC, where he accepted the Free Expression Award from the Freedom Forum for using humor, comedy and documentary storytelling to address race and social justice while being a champion of the First Amendment. He always has his eye and his wit trained on the most important issues of our time. Lately, he\u2019s been talking and writing a lot about artificial intelligence, and I\u2019m eager for you all to hear what he has to say, and I\u2019m sure he\u2019s eager to tell us.<\/p>\n
So thank you for being with us, Kamau, and special thanks to your mother, Janet, who I understand is also on her way. Kamau, please come on up.
Great to see you. All right.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: A gift bag already.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: I\u2019m not responsible for whatever\u2019s in that bag. OK. So I guess we should first establish some ground stakes for this conversation.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Great.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Now, you told me you actually are not a technophobe.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: No.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: So let\u2019s just sort of tell the people about you and technology.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: I mean, first let\u2019s tell the people about the fact that it is so strange to me where my career takes me, just that I\u2019m here right now. Does this mean I get a Pulitzer? All I want to say is I will sit here until I get a Pulitzer. It\u2019s Berkeley. You\u2019re used to sit-ins and lockdowns. So yes.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Might be able to give you a parking space. That would be the equivalent.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: That\u2019s a good start. That\u2019s a good start. I\u2019ll negotiate my demands. So yeah, you said \u2026 I used to record \u2026 The studio\u2019s in the basement. Is it still in the basement?<\/p>\n
Audience: Yeah.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: OK. That\u2019s \u2026<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: We do have one in the basement.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, they put me in the basement one. I used to record my podcast, Denzel Washington is the Greatest Actor of All Time Period, in the basement, for those of you who who know that podcast. I used to live in downtown Berkeley, so I would walk from my house to here and I never imagined that I was just trying to work my way upstairs a little bit. So I\u2019m happy to be here.<\/p>\n
I am not a technophobe, as a person who is \u2026 I think somehow being a comedian in the 21st century, it\u2019d be kind of hard to be a technophobe, but also being a kid who was an only child and really fell in love with the TV and that took me to the rest of technology, and as a kid, my mom bought us a Commodore VIC-20. I\u2019m old school.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Well, old school would be an Atari, but go ahead.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: But we wanted a learning device, although we did have Pong. My dad did buy me Pong. I had ColecoVision. Yeah, I\u2019m super \u2026 Oh, here she is. There\u2019s Janet Bell.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Excellent.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, she\u2019s heard all this. So yeah. I mean, and I was always a person who was interested in whatever the new technology was. I told you on the phone or on the Zoom, I had a MiniDisc player. So I was always a person who was interested in new technology. So none of this commentary about AI is coming from a person who does not like technology. I am the person in my family where if the TV\u2019s not working, it\u2019s up to Dada to fix it.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: I think that framing is important for this conversation tonight.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: I\u2019m a person who loves \u2026 If you say, \u201cWe\u2019re going there, there\u2019s no WiFi,\u201d I\u2019m not going there.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Very good. Well then, so tell us, how do you actually use AI? Do you?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Let me say this. I understand there\u2019s a certain amount of AI that comes baked into things now.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yep.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: So as a writer who writes on Google Docs a lot and Google Docs is like, \u201cDid you mean to say?\u201d Even in emails with Gmail now, you\u2019ll be like, \u201cI\u2019m ready to send my email,\u201d Gmail\u2019s like, \u201cEh-eh,\u201d and they will start to correct you. And I\u2019m realizing when I see that, \u201cOh, you want all to sound like the same person.\u201d I know that\u2019s a run-on sentence. That\u2019s one of my trademarks. And if I change it to what \u2026 You\u2019re just wanting me to not only correct the grammar, but correct the \u2026 because it\u2019s not all grammar, it\u2019s styles of communication. And so if I do that, then the email I send is going to sound like the email I get back and it\u2019s going to level out, and then the people who know me are going to be like, \u201cWhat happened?\u201d<\/p>\n
So yeah, I think there\u2019s a lot of AI I\u2019m getting that is just baked into things and I have to be really \u2026 Sometimes it\u2019s like, \u201cYeah, you\u2019re probably right. That probably would be better spelled correctly,\u201d but a lot of it is like, \u201cYeah, no, that\u2019s not the way that the king designed the English, but the king wasn\u2019t also expecting me to be here.\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: So do you intentionally leave the misspellings in sometimes?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Not misspellings, but grammar. Grammar\u2019s a suggestion. How dare you? I\u2019m not trying to misspell. I\u2019m also a good speller. There\u2019s a lot of things about me, but I\u2019m also like, I understand that the English language is constantly evolving. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s still that way, but I was a kid who was told ain\u2019t is not a word, and Black people sat on that for a long time and they went, \u201cOK, well, OK, fine, but it\u2019s not a proper word. We\u2019ll just keep sitting on it.\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: I was going to say, well, we can talk about the South a little bit later.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: So I mean, I just know that the language is meant to evolve, so if you tell me that \u2026 And to be clear, I actually have a Substack, and I pay someone to edit the Substack. So I\u2019m not against suggestions. That person\u2019s sitting right here.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Who is an author in her own right.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Well, no, my mom doesn\u2019t get to read them early. It\u2019s Kelly Rafferty right here.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Oh, sorry.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Ph.D. So yeah, I\u2019m surrounded by academics and surrounded by people who are like, \u201cMaybe this, maybe not that.\u201d So I\u2019m not against that. It\u2019s the idea of Kelly knows, \u201cKamau, this is a run on sentence. I know you like to do it, but this one\u2019s running on too long.\u201d That\u2019s different from the computer just saying, \u201cI just don\u2019t like the way this sounds.\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Fair enough.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: And then I\u2019ve experimented with AI, but as far as like, \u201cWell, how does this go around?\u201d And now there\u2019s thing where you Google anything and the first thing comes up is the AI description of what AI thinks you want to know.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Which could be totally wrong, right, or may have no relation to what you actually want to know.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. I mean, you want me to tell the \u2026<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yep. Go ahead.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: OK. I mean, we had a pre-talk and I was like, \u201cAre we doing \u2026\u201d I\u2019m happy to say anything. I just want to make sure \u2026 I respect you is what this is about.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Fair enough.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Normally I don\u2019t ask questions like that. Normally I just go. So the day that Charlie Kirk died, was killed, I was sort of like everybody, like, \u201cWhat just happened?\u201d, trying to figure it out. And then I had this question that happens to me a lot, \u201cHave I ever interacted with this person?\u201d I knew I never met him, but I also didn\u2019t know if we\u2019d ever maybe had an exchange on the internet, on Twitter, back in the day on Twitter. And so I Googled my name and Charlie Kirk. This is the day he died. This was within hours of the story breaking. And the AI at the top says, \u201cW. Kamau Bell made fun of Charlie Kirk the day he died,\u201d and had a quote of something that the AI said I had said to Charlie Kirk. And I\u2019m like, \u201cUnless I\u2019ve had a stroke recently, none of this has happened.\u201d<\/p>\n
Yeah. And then I clicked on it to see where it went, and it went somewhere where it was like I had posted something and somebody under it said something about something completely unrelated to any of this, but the AI had somehow scraped the internet and decided that I had insulted \u2026 And so I screen grabbed it. I still have it somewhere. I sent it to my lawyer, my manager, like, \u201cDo I get to sue Google? Do I get to own Google?\u201d They said no.<\/p>\n
But to me, that was the moment I was like \u2026 Having that happen to me was a very bracing moment, because I am a person who sometimes when I show up places, they go, \u201cWe hired extra security.\u201d So to me, knowing that could happen to me, it was a very big wake-up call.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: So with that wake up call actually, so if that could happen to you and it\u2019s not something that was real, where does your level of anxiety around AI sit today?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Actually, I was working on a piece. We\u2019re working on a piece on Substack about this right now. The thing that sort of bums me out right now is the idea that I\u2019m seeing people who I respect, who I know have good ideas just sort of bow down. A lot of what I do on social media is promotion for things I\u2019m doing, for like, \u201cI\u2019ll be here, I\u2019ll be there.\u201d And I\u2019m starting to see a lot of people I respect clearly using AI to promote their events, or, and this is difficult, using, \u201cDonate to people in Gary, Indiana, because the power\u2019s out,\u201d AI flyer. And you go, I get that you don\u2019t want to go through three different versions of this with a graphic designer while they need these things now, but there\u2019s also something weird about this. This is saying that we\u2019re bowing down to this idea.<\/p>\n
So for me, that\u2019s the thing I\u2019m seeing. I\u2019m seeing a lot of people who I know, I know you\u2019re not with the idea, the end game of this, I know that you who\u2019s saying, \u201cWe need to support people in Gary, Indiana,\u201d also knows that data centers are being put in Black communities and affecting Black communities. I know you know that, but as you sit here on your computer and you go, \u201cWe need a flyer for this today,\u201d it\u2019s easier to prompt.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Well, and then the flyers sometimes have AI slop, right? People will have three arms and all kinds of things that don\u2019t make sense for the flyers themselves.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. And they also, to me, a little bit when I see an AI flyer that is clearly AI, it makes me not necessarily trust the information.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yeah.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Now, the thing I know, I remember hearing this. There\u2019s a YouTube channel. I\u2019m a big YouTube person as far as watching things on YouTube. There\u2019s a channel called ColdFusion. Does anybody know that channel? ColdFusion is this guy, he\u2019s out of Australia, Black guy out of Australia, and he talks a lot about tech in the business world. The thing he said three years ago, I\u2019ll never forget it, when he was showing AI images of people, and it was at that point fashion models and you could tell they were fake, he\u2019s like, \u201cBut just understand, as bad as this may look to you now, this is as bad as it\u2019s ever going to look.\u201d And so I\u2019ve kept that with me with I\u2019m catching this AI stuff now because I have some things I\u2019m looking for, but I have to be aware that I\u2019m not going to be the smartest guy catching AI forever because AI is getting better at it.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yeah. But a lot of people in trying to justify AI, they like to make claims about what AI can do. What\u2019s the most ridiculous claim you\u2019ve ever heard someone make about what AI can do?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Again, I don\u2019t want to be \u2026 I\u2019m not anti-AI. I am a subscriber of it as a tool, but it is a very specific tool. My podcast called Who\u2019s With Me, I interviewed Sara Sidner from CNN, and she had breast cancer diagnosis. She\u2019s cancer free right now. She talked about the Breast Cancer Research Fund and they are using AI to help cure breast cancer. I get that. I get that. But I also know they\u2019re going to double check it. They\u2019re not going to say, \u201cAI, what\u2019s the cure? Thank you.\u201d<\/p>\n
I think the most ridiculous thing I\u2019ve seen AI try to do was I was a part of a thing with Vulture magazine where they had AI see if it could write standup comedy routines. So they put in a thing like, \u201cWrite,\u201d I don\u2019t know what the prompt is, but they had about five or six comedians, all who had very different styles, and I was one of them, and it was like, \u201cWrite a standup comedy routine in the style of W. Kamau Bell.\u201d And from reading that, I was like, \u201cOh, AI doesn\u2019t have any Black people in there anywhere.\u201d It was a long routine for W. Kamau Bell that did not mention race, America, Blackness, politics. It was like, I can\u2019t even imagine \u2026 If I did that, people would be like, \u201cKamau\u2019s been bought and paid for. Something happened.\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Or taken over by an alien.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There\u2019s an alien wearing his suit. But yeah, and it was just very clear to me. Again, we remember when cameras couldn\u2019t detect Black people.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Which wasn\u2019t that long ago.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: No, I know. It was like six months ago. No, but I\u2019m saying that\u2019s what I understand about technology, which I think is important to know technology is that technology is rarely \u2026 well, I say rarely \u2026 never invented, generally not invented in mass market with Black people in mind unless we\u2019re the target of it.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Well, yeah. So let\u2019s jump a little bit then. So let\u2019s talk about that, right? I mean, so having this technology that seems to be all around us and affecting people, the first question I guess would be how do we even begin to deal with it? And I would surmise that most people in this room are probably better equipped with knowledge about this than some of the average people because we\u2019re on a college campus, etc., etc., but everything that\u2019s going on around us and everything that\u2019s happening, how do you avoid going numb from all of the tech chaos around AI?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: What is it? You don\u2019t have to get angry if you stay angry? I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s the best way to put it. Thank you, 40% of you. The stakes are high. I have three kids at home, so whatever I\u2019m saying about AI, they\u2019re living a different version of it every day. I\u2019ve got a 15-year-old, an 11-year-old and an 8-year-old. I\u2019m also interacting with them about the state of the world.<\/p>\n
And so for me to see \u2026 I have my knowledge to be paying attention to this, and they\u2019re just growing up when AI is just already there. So for me, the idea of if I have to \u2026 The way my mom over here, she\u2019s 89. She doesn\u2019t look 89. She\u2019s 89. We\u2019ll show her ID. I would not be doing what she did if I took my foot off the gas right now and was like, \u201cIt\u2019ll all be fine,\u201d because I also think that we are being lulled to think \u2026 Even right now, talking about the midterms of the next election, there\u2019s a sense of like, \u201cWell, once we get it back \u2026\u201d It\u2019s a pendulum.\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Well, there\u2019s no going back, is there?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: There\u2019s no going back. And I think we also are misunderstanding how history works, world history works, if we think it always goes back or that countries don\u2019t just collapse occasionally, and so I think the idea being that I feel a real, to my own detriment as a person who also has to feed my family, I feel a real sense of, and that\u2019s that lady\u2019s fault, that I got to say something and I got to do something even if the thing I\u2019m saying and doing is calling David Ellison a doofus while the next day I have a Zoom call with Paramount like, \u201cWould you like to buy my projects?\u201d And I\u2019ve done that, yes. They didn\u2019t buy it.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: But I mean, you\u2019ve raised an interesting point, so let\u2019s circle back a little bit. So you\u2019re raising three children here in the East Bay in the age of AI. I mean, what do you worry about, in terms of how AI is reshaping childhood and the social connections that your children might have?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: I mean, so I think that, again, I wish my wife was there because she\u2019s not anti-technology, but she\u2019s definitely more careful about it than me. I do understand that my 11-year-old, who\u2019s an introvert like I am, has this iPad which allows her to connect with people that she wouldn\u2019t have been able to connect to when I was 11. She\u2019s actually on FaceTime with her cousins. Now you can be like, \u201cYou\u2019re on your device,\u201d but I\u2019m like, \u201cNo, you\u2019re actually having a conversation with your cousin that you wouldn\u2019t have otherwise.\u201d<\/p>\n
So I see it that way. So I definitely think I\u2019m not a take-all-the-technology-from-the-kids person. Far from that. My wife would wish I was sometimes. But I do understand that we have to be constantly monitoring, what are you getting? I say that as I have a 15-year-old now and the connection starts to be, you have to be able to monitor everything, and I don\u2019t want my kid to grow up like this. So she didn\u2019t have social media until she got to high school, and it was like she wanted Instagram, and me and her mom had a real long talk about it, and my wife was like, \u201cI don\u2019t know about that.\u201d I was like, \u201cThat\u2019s how these kids talk to each other now. Now we can put rules around it, but I think if we don\u2019t let our kid have Instagram, we\u2019re actually closing her off from her social circle.\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: So how are you actually teaching them to use the tools? And actually, something that I think is interesting, because of the range of their ages, even how they embrace the technology and their attitudes toward it are probably different because the 15-year-old is going to be different from the other one, and \u2026<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: The 11-year-old.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. They\u2019re also just weirdly different people.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Right. They\u2019re all girls, right?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: They\u2019re all girls. Yes, yes. Yeah. I mean, one thing that we have done, and I\u2019ll give my wife a lot of credit for this, is be very clear from day one who our family is and what our family\u2019s about and what goes in our family and what does not go in our family. And I will say, but we also like to have a good time, so it\u2019s not exactly like, \u201cWe don\u2019t have fun,\u201d or, \u201cWe do between 8:15 and 8:30.\u201d No, I\u2019m their dad and my wife married me, but there is a sense of our kids didn\u2019t have the, \u201cI need social media\u201d thing that some kids have at their age because we\u2019ve been talking about it their whole lives and giving them the reasons why we don\u2019t do that. It doesn\u2019t mean they always like it, but they understood coming in this is what it is.<\/p>\n
So I think some of this is about really being actively aware and not giving up to the thing, my wife is good at this, just because everybody else is doing it. Like when does your kid get a cell phone? Our kid got a cell phone when she turned 13, which we thought was the right age, but then around 10, kids started showing up with cell phones around her, but we had had our kid, 13 is when you get it, so she sort of, \u201cOK.\u201d But then guess what happened? 13 came. My wife was like, \u201cThis was faster than I expected it to be.\u201d And my kid was like, \u201cI wrote it down,\u201d which she had. And I told my wife, \u201cDo you want to break this promise? Do we want to be those parents?\u201d And so we did it. But I just got a text, but my wife, now we have the \u2026 The iPhones, for whatever they are, do have very good parent controls, ways to make your kid\u2019s phone less fun.<\/p>\n
And so we engage those things, but I think it\u2019s also about, we are very clear with them about that, and they also know they don\u2019t live in a house where we\u2019re afraid of technology. And also, I have to get over the fact that I\u2019m talking to my 11-year-old and I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat do you mean you get a calculator at school? I didn\u2019t get a calculator at school. Those were for rich kids.\u201d Their education is different than my education, so some of that is also about learning about how my expectations of what they\u2019re doing are different than they actually are.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: So is the 8-year-old sitting there counting the years and saying, \u201cOK, at 13, I\u2019m going to get my phone,\u201d or is the expectation from her that \u2026<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Well, how about this? The fact that the 11-year-old is like, \u201cMy birthday\u2019s in October. Her birthday is in May. So if I\u2019m 13, then that means I\u2019m actually in the next year of school, which means I start that year of school without a phone. I need it in the summer.\u201d We\u2019re saying the summer between these two years of school.<\/p>\n
So yeah, it happens when your kids are smart. And that becomes part of the discussion because I was like, \u201cYeah, if you were to start whatever it is, eighth grade or ninth grade and you don\u2019t have a phone, we\u2019re waiting for this arbitrary day in October that\u2019s your birthday to give you the phone,\u201d so we\u2019ve had those discussions.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Man, it was an entirely different discussion when we were kids.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: No, it was an entirely different discussion.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: What did I want? What did I want?<\/p>\n
Janet Bell: A color TV.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: A color TV. I wanted a color TV. That\u2019s why you bring Janet Bell. I think: \u201cIt\u2019s not fair that TV\u2019s in color and in our house, it\u2019s in black and white. I get that the world was black and white when you were born, but now they\u2019ve invented color.\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Oh, goodness. So in our conversation, and actually in your work, you\u2019ve explored what I\u2019m going to bring up next. We know that tech development and wealth are often concentrated on the coast. Here we are on the West Coast. Rural communities in the Deep South often face underinvestment while bearing the environmental or labor costs. You spent many summers in Alabama and have deep family roots there going back generations, I understand.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yes. Yep.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: And of course, I grew up in Mobile.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Anybody else from Mobile, Alabama?<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Well, we do have another Alabaman, but I don\u2019t know if he\u2019s actually in the room tonight. We\u2019ve got somebody from Birmingham.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Three is too many?<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yeah.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. We\u2019re connected to the same town in Alabama, which is very funny.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which, OK, I have to take the little deviation since we brought that up. So I\u2019m from Mobile. Your dad lives in Mobile.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Right now.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: So just Kamau. So which is better, Mobile or New Orleans?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: I\u2019m going to answer that question wrong. Just so you don\u2019t understand, Mobile, Alabama is the birthplace of Mardi Gras. You don\u2019t know that because New Orleans is loud and they lie. They\u2019re loud liars in New Orleans. Tell Michael Lewis I said so. I know he lives nearby. When I met Michael Lewis, who from New Orleans, I was like, \u201cYou know Mardi Gras started in Alabama.\u201d Yeah, so yeah. So Mobile\u2019s better.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yeah. Mobile\u2019s also older. But back to the AI question. So when Silicon Valley builds these systems that claim to represent everyone, first of all, do they miss the reality of life in the Deep South?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: I mean, they miss the reality of life full stop, but certainly the reality \u2026 I mean, I don\u2019t know this. Mark Zuckerberg, what are we talking, Meta has to pay $18 billion, an $18 billion settlement, and I\u2019m one of the people that\u2019s like, \u201cThat seems light.\u201d So I think that we are very aware that the people who control these platforms and control this technology, maybe they \u2026 Remember Google\u2019s, what was it used to be, \u201cDo no harm,\u201d or \u2026<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Do no evil?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Do no evil?<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yeah.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: And then that\u2019s not the way it is anymore. Kamau Bell and Charlie Kirk are beefing. Oh, really, Google? So I think the idea being that we have to really understand that these people have been very clear about they\u2019re not in it for humanity just generally. And if you\u2019re not in it for humanity generally, that means you\u2019re definitely not in it for humanity. You\u2019re already preferencing the cities and you\u2019re definitely not in it for poor, rural, Black and brown areas and Indigenous areas for sure, because all those places are to you are places to build your tech centers, which is what they\u2019ve done outside of Memphis and other places, and apparently talking about downtown Oakland. That\u2019s what rural means, downtown Oakland.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yeah, because Black people are there.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, Black people, Black people.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: But to that point, so Tommy Tuberville, who\u2019s a candidate for governor of Alabama \u2026<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Ex-football coach, everybody. He\u2019s a football coach in Alabama. Said, \u201cThat seems like a senator.\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Well, yeah, former football coach of Auburn, and there\u2019s an entire debate about whether or not he actually lives in Alabama.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Of course not.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: But he\u2019s touted putting data centers in rural areas like northern Mobile County and that the data centers will help the state be able to quote \u201ctake care of the elderly, the veterans and the kids that need food.\u201d<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Because those are the words you say when you\u2019re a Republican politician in Alabama to get anything done. It\u2019s going to take care of the elderly and the military. Those are the buzzwords, and rural. Those are things you say. When we know that these centers, first of all, they\u2019re damaging the environment, but Republicans in Alabama don\u2019t care anything about the environment. It\u2019s where they do, but not in a meaningful way. And they\u2019re not bringing jobs and they\u2019re going to put it next to a private majority Black community because that\u2019s what they do, and then they won\u2019t have to worry about if it damages the environment.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Well, because actually in Alabama, I mean, we see these things happen and then they\u2019ll do things like make it impossible to get a driver\u2019s license or to vote, or you\u2019ll be in a community where you\u2019re still piping raw sewage on the ground because of the lack of investment in infrastructure.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: And we\u2019re talking about communities where you\u2019re already people feeling disenfranchised just based on the idea that they\u2019ve never seen politicians work for them before, so you don\u2019t even have to tell them not to vote because they feel totally disconnected.<\/p>\n
Now, there\u2019s an organization called Black Voters Matter, which is in the South. It\u2019s based out of the south, which is going around actively registering Black voters in the south because so many Black voters have been completely disenfranchised by the system, they\u2019re not even thinking about voting. And so therefore, there\u2019s a natural vote suppression in the south based on gerrymandering and other things.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yeah. Well, we could go on all night about that.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: I don\u2019t know if they want \u2026 Yeah, go on all night about gerrymandering. Yes.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: So with this sort of systemic problem, and we alluded to this a little bit earlier, so what happens when we take that neglect and the historic human prejudices and feed them into algorithms to automate decision making that underpins things like generative AI?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: I mean, it\u2019s the same that we talk about. It\u2019s how you get the cameras that couldn\u2019t see Black people. It\u2019s like once you feed in bad information, bad outputs come out of there. And so my job, I feel like one of my main jobs is just to, in the morning, listen to Democracy Now like this and figure out, \u201cHow do I make this funny?\u201d I know there are other news outlets too, but I just like that one. And I know Amy Goodman a little bit, the least funny news possible. Lovingly, lovingly. Why should she be?<\/p>\n
But the idea being I hear all this stuff and I figure out how do I then translate this to people who aren\u2019t going to spend the time doing what I\u2019m doing here? Because I think that\u2019s the key part that I feel is a certain responsibility to be like, yes, I like being funny. Yes, I like having a good time. Yes, I like telling jokes about my kids and I have a ton of jokes about my kids, but there is a real sense of that I feel like that we\u2019re at a tipping point of world history, this country\u2019s history, that I feel like necessarily, especially as my hair gets grayer as I sit here, that I feel I have to do something. I have to say something.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Well, part of what you\u2019re doing is keeping the human cost in the conversation, which so often gets overlooked.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: That\u2019s what I meant to say.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: That\u2019s why I\u2019m the dean, Kamau.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: You should run a journalism school.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: I never thought a boy from Alabama would be sitting here doing that.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Neither one of us though boys from Alabama would be sitting here, so look at us.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Right. So one of the beauties of comedy, it really relies on shared human pain, absurdity, timing. Code can try to mimic those elements. It can\u2019t feel them. As a comedian and storyteller, what do you think a machine fundamentally fails to understand about human art and comedy?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Why would the goal be for a machine to understand that?<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Some of the tech bosses would say that\u2019s what they\u2019re trying to do.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: And you know what they are? They\u2019re not art critics. It is so interesting because whenever you look at the people who run the tech companies, very rarely are they even computer experts. If you look at some of the resumes, they\u2019re not qualified to do the thing that they\u2019re doing, but they\u2019re good at talking to people and getting them to give them money.<\/p>\n
So to me, the idea being like, I don\u2019t know why \u2026 There\u2019s a comedian named Stavros Halkias, who I\u2019m going to butcher the joke, but the idea was like, \u201cWasn\u2019t AI supposed to do all the work so we could make art? Why did we flip it?\u201d Yeah, Stavros said that, not me. So the idea being that why would we want to put AI in a position where we were even competing with art for \u2026 I don\u2019t even understand the question.<\/p>\n
I mean, there\u2019s another one. The platform Sunos, which is AI music, this guy said something to the effect of like, \u201cNobody likes all the hard work that goes into making music.\u201d That\u2019s actually why you do it, because it\u2019s fun to struggle.<\/p>\n
I have a book that\u2019s due Sept. 16 that I have written one chapter of. Please don\u2019t tell my publisher. I am sitting here right now going, \u201cI could just knock this out while we talk.\u201d I could get on my phone right now and be like, \u201cHere\u2019s the premise prompt,\u201d and be done and then text it to her while I\u2019m sitting here talking to you. First of all, I don\u2019t believe in that, but second of all, where\u2019s the fun in that? The fun is in that on Sept. 15, I\u2019ll be up at 4 a.m. like I\u2019m a college freshman like, \u201cOh God, whose idea was this?\u201d And out of that, some idea will come out. \u201cThat\u2019s great. Where did that come from?\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: But hey, that\u2019s what journalists do. They love to crash on deadline, too.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yes. Like, what is \u2026 why would we want \u2026 Do we think the Beatles were the Beatles because it was easy? I don\u2019t understand what we\u2019re even talking about.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: There\u2019s beauty in the struggle, right, and it\u2019s like, \u201cI can create this.\u201d<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Or the idea that even if there\u2019s certain level of \u2026 I think there are musicians and artists where it just sort of flows out, but it flows out from a place. It doesn\u2019t flow out from an algorithm. So I don\u2019t even understand why. Here\u2019s the thing I do think is close approaching.<\/p>\n
So Spider-Man: Brand New Day just came out. Superwoman just came out. There have been things that come out that there has been concept art from both of those movies, some of it was created by AI. If you buy the Spider-Man: Brand New Day concept art book, there\u2019s pictures where people have said, \u201cThis is clearly AI.\u201d<\/p>\n
Those studios want AI movies, especially of a blockbuster like that. They may let you weirdos make the indie sort of \u2026 the character dramas, but there\u2019s no reason to work that hard to make these big blockbusters. And I watched some of those big blockbusters. Spider-Man: Brand New Day was great, I thought, but they want to eventually just go, \u201cTom Holland, we will pay you X amount just for your likeness and to promote it and we will then take it from here.\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Well, because then they don\u2019t have to spend $300 million to make the movie.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: No, but they will not charge us less to go to the movies. It\u2019s not like, \u201cOh, now all art is free.\u201d They\u2019re not going to do that. They\u2019re probably going to raise more money. \u201cWe used a lot of AI on this. This new movie has the most AI that\u2019s ever been used, so the tickets go up a price.\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Well, and actually I would be remiss if I didn\u2019t, in this conversation, didn\u2019t mention one of the most creative persons who\u2019s ever lived who just passed, Dolly Parton. No AI could do Dolly Parton, right?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: No. And here\u2019s the weird thing about this, and I posted this yesterday and it\u2019s funny, a lot of people respect it. I said, \u201cDolly Parton is on the list of white people that Black people don\u2019t play about.\u201d And there\u2019s a lot of white people who are like, \u201cWhat does that mean?\u201d That\u2019s exactly what I got online. But do the Black people in the room know what I\u2019m talking about when I say \u2026 Yeah, thank you. OK, there we go. There we go.<\/p>\n
Black people, we don\u2019t play about Dolly Parton. I don\u2019t even know why that is. You know what I\u2019m saying? I can\u2019t even point to the eight things that Dolly Parton did that I\u2019d be like, \u201cThat\u2019s why I feel that way about Dolly Parton.\u201d When I tweeted that, I\u2019m like, \u201cIs this true or is this just me?\u201d And I sent it out and people were like, \u201cYou right, brother.\u201d<\/p>\n
And then white people were like, \u201cI\u2019m going to need you to explain.\u201d And I was like, \u201cI\u2019m going to need you to Google. Don\u2019t read the AI part at the top.\u201d But what I\u2019m saying is there\u2019s something Dolly Parton did that let Black people know she\u2019s one of the good white ladies. She\u2019s not like the rest. She speaks so well.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: She was down.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. Yeah. I think it\u2019s maybe from Appalachia. Anyway, just the way it is. I\u2019ve spent time in Appalachia and you have to be close to everybody up there because there\u2019s no getting out of town. But yeah, it\u2019s the idea that there\u2019s something that Dolly Parton had that resonated with people, with Black people in LA, even though she was from Appalachia in Tennessee, that AI can\u2019t reconstruct. We can\u2019t go, now that Dolly\u2019s passed, \u201cAI, please create a virtual Dolly Parton.\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Oh, well, so I\u2019ve got one for you. I was in this conversation at the Aspen Institute recently, and so we were considering \u2026 There\u2019s actually a company here in Silicon Valley that\u2019s developing grief bots to create virtual representations of people after they pass. What do you think about that?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: My mom just went, \u201cOh God.\u201d How much do they cost? This is those times you go, \u201cAre we broken?\u201d I just think that the idea \u2026 And I mean, this is the other part. We all know that many of those Silicon Valley billionaires are all working in life extension and all trying to figure out, the guy who\u2019s like, \u201cI\u2019m only 50 years old,\u201d yeah, brother, are working it.<\/p>\n
So there\u2019s this idea that, I get the want to live together. I get the want to let people live longer, healthier lives. I don\u2019t get the trying to beat death. And also I don\u2019t get trying to beat death unless you\u2019ve really figured out some sort of Octavia Butler spell that she left behind. Thank you. I don\u2019t get thinking that technology can do that.<\/p>\n
I\u2019m old enough to remember the hologram Tupac at Coachella. Anybody else remember the hologram? And there was a moment where you were like, \u201cYeah. Ugh.\u201d And they though, they were going to take that on tour. And everybody was like, \u201cThat looks \u2026 Now I\u2019m sick.\u201d Exactly. So the idea that, again, I think it\u2019s also a way to distract all of us from the fact that life is pretty hard for many of us and AI is not going to make that easier on us. I remember, and now that the media, not you all, you\u2019re all different, but mainstream media can be so compromised in that.<\/p>\n
I\u2019ve seen news stories, weirdly it was on CBS News, about a guy who had fell in love with his AI chatbot and they just told the story like, \u201cThis is a guy who fell in love,\u201d and meanwhile, literally, they\u2019re like, \u201cAnd here\u2019s his wife,\u201d and she\u2019s like, \u201cAh.\u201d There was like, \u201cAnd his wife\u2019s not done, but anyway.\u201d And this work to be objective, they\u2019re normalizing this thing that is like we should not \u2026 He\u2019s the broken one here. It\u2019s not weird that his wife is upset.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: So Bernie Sanders recently said that he just thinks the effects of AI are cataclysmic, and he advocated for pausing AI development. Do you agree? Do you think that could get any traction?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: I\u2019ve never thought that you can stop technology from moving forward. I\u2019m not trying to be like \u2026 I just think that what you can do is go, \u201cWhile this is happening, what can we do?\u201d I mean, we talked about this, the idea that I was of the generation, they said, \u201cThere\u2019s not going to be any more record albums. There\u2019s no more vinyl. Vinyl\u2019s going to be over because CDs have really come here.\u201d And there was a period where vinyl went down and then a lot of people went, \u201cWhoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.\u201d So I think there\u2019s a way to sort of, how can you invest in things that are not AI to keep those structures around and to keep people doing laps of reps of not AI so we can all remember how to be human is the question.<\/p>\n
I mean, Kelly, I keep pointing to these two people over here, but Kelly, we were working on this piece about AI for my Substack that I thought was going to be out today, but it\u2019s not because I had a lot going on, Kelly. I\u2019m sorry. But her wife is in a band called Mutt, a great band, and they were on a festival, a music festival, and the festival, the flyer was just marker on a white piece of paper, \u201cMusic festival. These are the bands. Gate and time,\u201d which is a way of going, \u201cThis is not AI. This is a real thing you\u2019re going to experience.\u201d And people got it printed up on t-shirts because there\u2019s a sense for when AI is coming for you, what can you do if you\u2019re not with it? You can go the other direction.<\/p>\n
And again, I get that AI is a tool that we\u2019re using every day in predictive text and all sorts of things, but we don\u2019t have to submit to it. Dr. Dre just said AI is just a tool. It\u2019s easy to say that after you\u2019re a billionaire. You know what I mean? It\u2019s just the idea that there\u2019s been lots of musicians and lots of people and people who I like and respect. Martin Scorsese says he\u2019s using AI. You know what I mean? The idea that I think Matt Damon or Ben Affleck just sold an AI company to Netflix.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yeah, he did.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: The idea of being like, these are people who have done work that I respect and have enjoyed, but it\u2019s also like, \u201cYou\u2019re a compromised asset here. Why would I trust you?\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: But it\u2019s interesting, this point you bring up too. I was thinking, so between the conversation that we had last week and today, one of the things I did this past weekend, I was out in an old record store in Albany going through the vinyl because it was sort of an antidote to some of the stuff that surrounds me on a daily basis.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, I think that there has to be a sense of really reaching for the opposite of that and getting back in rooms with each other, and I\u2019m not saying I\u2019m anti-Zoom, but I do think there\u2019s got to be a sense of those of us who don\u2019t want to turn our lives over to AI or just go, \u201cOK, billionaires, you take it from here, let me know where I fit in,\u201d that we have to actively work to make sure we\u2019re doing the opposite of that, whatever that means for you.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yeah. So on college campuses, I mean, especially in graduation season, we saw a lot of people speaking out against data centers and AI and really trying to draw attention to the issue. Do you sense, do you think that\u2019ll become a defining issue for this generation?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: I think that issue is off the tree of oligarchs and technocrats and billionaires. I think that\u2019s the defining issue of our time and how they then use their means and power to create the world they want to see. So I think AI is a big part of that, but I don\u2019t think it is the issue. I think we are just seeing it in this way right now.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: So where do regular people then, where do we actually have leverage? Do we?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Well, yeah, leverage to do, I guess, what? I mean, leverage to \u2026 We could go outside right now and block traffic if we wanted to.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Let\u2019s go.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: I got the evening off. My wife\u2019s with the kids, so I can do that for a few hours. Of course we have leverage, but I think the idea, and just yesterday, again, another thing like, \u201cHow did this happen?\u201d So a good friend of mine, a mentor of mine, my pastor, Pastor Michael McBride, he\u2019s got a church here in Berkeley, the Way Christian Fellowship here in Berkeley, who I met 10 years ago when I first moved back to Berkeley when I was doing podcasts here, and he is an old-school social justice pastor in the tradition of the civil rights movement in the 21st century. So you say do we have leverage?<\/p>\n
He called me up and he was like, \u201cHey, there\u2019s a press conference to get Gavin Newsom to sign a bill to study reparations in California. I can\u2019t be there. Can you be there?\u201d I said, \u201cWhere is it?\u201d He said, \u201cSacramento.\u201d I said, \u201cWhat time is it?\u201d He said, \u201c9 in the morning.\u201d I said, \u201cHello? Who\u2019s this? Wrong number.\u201d<\/p>\n
So here\u2019s what I feel. I was like, \u201cYes, I can be there. Do I really want to be there? Not really. Nothing against 9 in the morning or Sacramento, but can I be there? Yes.\u201d So for me, the question is: What are you willing to do? And also, in the grand scheme of things, going to Sacramento to speak for five minutes, even though it\u2019s not a thing that when I was a kid watching Eddie Murphy on SNL being like, \u201cI want to do that,\u201d it feels like I\u2019ve sort of moved off the path a little bit, but it is the path that I\u2019m on apparently.<\/p>\n
So for me, the question is: We all have things we can leverage. We all have things we can do. We all have people we\u2019re in community with. We all need to build more community around us and strengthen community ties around us, and then we will be better able to make decisions with community.<\/p>\n
So because I met Pastor Mike 10 years ago and we have been \u2026 Actually, that\u2019s funny. I met him in the basement here where we recorded the podcast. I emailed a group chat of influencers and activists going, \u201cIs there anybody here who can talk about Ferguson?\u201d And he was like, \u201cI can.\u201d I go, \u201cWhere are you?\u201d \u201cBerkeley.\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cOh, come down the street.\u201d So that was here. We have built community for over 10 years now, and that led him being able to call me and go, \u201cI can\u2019t be there in Sacramento tomorrow. Can you be there?\u201d And I was like, \u201cI can be there.\u201d So to me, the idea is, do we have leverage? Yes. What is your leverage?<\/p>\n
Me and Kate Schatz wrote this book, Do the Work, that was all about \u2026 Part of it is about figuring out what your privileges are. There\u2019s a section called \u201cCheck Your Privilege\u201d where there\u2019s a list of things and you check which ones you have. Some of them are like, \u201cI\u2019m over six feet tall,\u201d because it\u2019s a privilege to be tall in this society. Some of them are like, \u201cI am George Clooney.\u201d You know what I mean? There\u2019s different levels of privilege. Not over six feet tall, though. And then some of them are not afraid of an extra bill, not afraid of an interaction with a cop. Why do we do that? Because people have to see what their privileges are, because once you know what your privileges are, you know where you can put leverage.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: So the other side of that, I guess, what does accountability look like in an era when we seem to be having tech people self-police themselves?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Or not self-police themselves.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Or exactly, not self-police themselves?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: I mean, I would give you an example. This is just from the Black community since we\u2019re people. What, was it last year, two years ago, after Trump got in, Target said no more DEI?<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yeah.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: And Black people, who love Target like we love Dolly Parton, maybe not that much, but we\u2019re like, \u201cHuh.\u201d Target stocks a lot of Black businesses and a certain percent of Black people said, \u201cI\u2019m not going to go to Target anymore.\u201d A little bit, I was first, I was like, \u201cAre we really able to do that? Is this really a real boycott?\u201d We were able to do that, and it affected Target\u2019s bottom line. Target keeps trying to figure out how to come back from that.<\/p>\n
And again, Target is a place that we felt safe shopping, we felt comfortable shopping. And that was not the kind of organized, sustained boycott that MLK did with the Montgomery bus boycott, but it was a legit action that did affect the bottom line of the company that we were looking at. And I think that I take all those things super seriously. It\u2019s easy to look at those things and go, \u201cEh,\u201d but I think those things exist in this world and we can all figure out ways to participate in ways to say no.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Well, because on the other side of that, right, I mean, so Target did what it did and there was the response, but Costco benefited on the other side because \u2026<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, Costco\u2019s like, \u201cWe love DEI and hot dogs.\u201d And so people were like, \u201cOh, look at Costco over there.\u201d I think the idea being that that\u2019s where we\u2019re at right now. That\u2019s where we\u2019re at right now. You have to really \u2026 I know somebody saw the Target thing yesterday. They have so few Black people in Target right now in decision-making positions. You\u2019ve seen this? That they released a Halloween costume.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Oh, the minstrel.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, exactly. You said all you need to say: minstrel. Minstrel, a costume with a little Black boy in it as a spooky minstrel. And I was like, \u201cThat\u2019s how few Black people you have in Target.\u201d Or there\u2019s probably Black people who are like, \u201cYeah, good luck with that. Anyway, let me go get my paycheck.\u201d You know what I mean? So the idea being that\u2019s how lost they have gotten since Black people said, \u201cWe\u2019re not messing with you anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n
So for me, the idea that I think what we have to do, and I feel like this, we have to be loud and clear, and when you can organize people around you, it\u2019s easier to be louder and clear. One of the great things about yesterday when I went to Sacramento to talk about reparations for Black people who descended from slavery is that there were Japanese American citizens there who were saying, \u201cWe understand the need for reparations because what we dealt with in our community internment camps.\u201d I was so enthused and excited. That to me, that\u2019s so Bay Area and so California, Northern California, maybe Southern, I don\u2019t know, but that we are doing this together. So I think for me, the big thing is to build bridges in your community with people like you, but also build bridges with people who may not be like you.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: No, I think that that\u2019s absolutely critical actually.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, no, for sure.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Go ahead.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: No, no. I just want to be clear when I say that, there are some people who are lost to you and I don\u2019t encourage people wasting their time. I\u2019m not that guy. \u201cKamau, you met with the KKK.\u201d I didn\u2019t bring a pie. That is a thing I did for television. I\u2019m saying there are people around us every day who are like, \u201cI feel like things are wrong. I feel like things are wrong, too. I feel like the world is going to a worse place.\u201d Those are the people you can reach out to and build with. I\u2019m not telling you to put yourself in dangerous positions or positions where you\u2019re banging your head up against the wall.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Actually, how do you make that calculation though? Because sometimes you\u2019re optimistic, right?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: People ask me that all the time. I\u2019m optimistic if we do the work. I\u2019m not optimistic just because yay. So I feel like I\u2019m optimistic, but I also try to be very clear that my life is different than my work. I might talk to a Klan member on television, but I\u2019m not saying, \u201cWhat are you doing after this?\u201d Mom, you didn\u2019t like this. She hated that. When I talked to the Klan member, weirdly, she didn\u2019t like it.<\/p>\n
So in my life, I am very clear about, I\u2019m not saying you get one strike and you\u2019re out, but it\u2019s very clear to me that me and this person are not aligned. It doesn\u2019t mean I can necessarily move my house away from your house, but it does mean that \u2026 I think it\u2019s very \u2026 Especially as a Black person in this country, I have to be super clear with who I can lean on and who I cannot lean on.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: I agree with that. I think you have to be very clear about what your values are and where you stand so that people know that.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: And I also have to be clear with my kids to know that that\u2019s what we do. So there may be a teacher at your school that you should not trust, and I want you to know that I know that, and I want you to feel like you can tell me that so we can figure that out.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: So actually, I want to ask you one more question, then we\u2019re going to go to the audience Q&A. You brought up your kids again.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Jesus, all the time with this.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: But one of the things we talked about that I thought was very telling and important is the fact that you go back and forth to South Alabama and you take your kids and you make sure you do that. I mean, it\u2019s important to do that. So tell us about that.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: So this lady over here, Janet Cheatham-Bell, she\u2019s 89, I lived with her during the school year, and then the summer I\u2019d go visit my dad in Mobile, Alabama. And we lived lots of different places, Boston, Chicago, Indianapolis. I was born out here, but every summer I would go visit my dad in Alabama. And this was back in the days, and I\u2019ve told this story a lot before, where she would just take me to the airport and put me on a plane, and then I would be like 4 years old flying to Alabama, changing planes in Atlanta. My kids were like, \u201cAh.\u201d
At the time, it felt like Alabama wasn\u2019t always the most fun place. It wasn\u2019t always like \u2026<\/p>\n
Suddenly I couldn\u2019t see PG-13 movies. It was just weird. When I was at my grandmother\u2019s house, I watched whatever. It was just not the most fun environment. As I got older, and especially when I moved out here in my mid-20s, because my first job was right near campus, and I would tell people in Berkeley, they\u2019re like, \u201cOh, where are you going? You\u2019re going out of town?\u201d \u201cYeah.\u201d \u201cWhere are you going?\u201d \u201cAlabama.\u201d \u201cAlabama?\u201d People of all different Black, white, Latino, Asian, \u201cWhat are you going to Alabama for?\u201d \u201cMy dad lives there.\u201d \u201cYour dad lives there?\u201d The South to so many people in this country is just verboten. It is the place to not be. It is a place of ignorance. It is a place of violence.<\/p>\n
And while that can be true, also so is Berkeley. So the idea being that I understood, yes, there are things there that need to be worked on, but also there\u2019s a lot of beauty there. And so as an adult, I started to really be happy that I spent so much time in the South, because especially as a Black person, our stories, if you\u2019re a descendant of slavery, come through the South, so it\u2019d be ridiculous to sort of freeze them off.<\/p>\n
And then as I had kids, it became really important to me to take them to the South as young as possible, as often as possible, so that when you say Alabama to my kids, they go, \u201cWe love Alabama. The beaches there are great.\u201d Many of you didn\u2019t know there were beaches in Alabama.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: They\u2019re some of the best beaches in the world, actually.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. They literally call it the Redneck Riviera. That\u2019s what they call it. And so we just came from the Redneck Riviera a couple months ago, seeing my dad. And so my kids have this idea of Alabama, so that to me, it\u2019s important that the South is accessible to you because to so many people in this country, all they\u2019re going to know about what the South is is what AI tells them.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Yep. That\u2019s right. OK. So on that \u2026<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Had to bring it all together at the end with the AI thing.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Well, you did, and I\u2019m grateful. Maybe I\u2019ll make you a dean here.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: A Pulitzer and a dean.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: OK. So we\u2019re going to turn to the audience. We have time for a couple of questions, and there are people who have microphones, so raise your hand and somebody will make their way to you.<\/p>\n
Audience 1: I\u2019m always interested in the way that the patterns of our lives and the history of our lives converge to create realities in the present day, and I\u2019m really curious about what it is you think about what has converged to create a situation when we\u2019re so willing to give ourselves away, give our humanity away, give our humanness away to some greater power or a corporation. And that\u2019s the way I see AI is, yeah, it can be a tool for good, and I\u2019m sort of in the same vein as you, I support that, but what is it existentially that\u2019s happening to us where we\u2019re willing \u2026 So many people, I know intelligent people who are blithely using AI, and I just wonder what is the convergence? Was it partially COVID? Was it partially the fame monster? What is it that makes us want to give our humanity away? Are we anti-human now?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: You take it from there. I feel like you can answer this question. I think that America as a country, this is all baked into how this country started, because this country was started on a myth that didn\u2019t exist. This country was started \u2026 There\u2019s twin war crimes, the genocide of Native Americans and the transatlantic slave trade that immediately got papered over as we had Thanksgiving together and the slaves had room and board. So I think that the ways in which we have told the story of America has been faulty. That faulty lie has been bought by many of us, even those of us who should have known better, but how could we have known better? Because it\u2019s the idea that I\u2019m lucky I grew up in household where she\u2019s like, \u201cWhat did they tell you in history class today? No, no, no, no, no, no, no.\u201d<\/p>\n
But the idea being that America, I think this has only ended recently, I said for years, had the greatest publicist in the world. It made sense that Hollywood came from America because we are a country that is about myth building and about selling the lie when the truth is inconvenient. And I think that just being the foundation of this country, the way in which this country was founded, and the way in which this country sort of very early on can \u2026 I was going to say, this is a funny thing about this. All the microwave oven is is a technological version of enslavement. Convenience is more important than anything else. So slavery is very convenient if you\u2019re not a slave, and a microwave is very convenient if you don\u2019t have time to cook.<\/p>\n
But I think the idea that we\u2019ve prioritized convenience means that you sit at a computer and you go, \u201cOK, I could reach out for a graphic designer by going online and not thinking, or I could make this easier on myself.\u201d And we have been taught to believe that easier, that you work hard, you deserve things to be easier, but often on the back end of that easier is like that microwave is fucking up your food. You know what I mean? Again, I\u2019m not against microwaves, but I\u2019m not cooking a turkey dinner in there. You know what I mean?<\/p>\n
So I think the idea being that the way in which we told the story of America has been so faulty that we bought into, and then the people who get to the top tell you, \u201cThat story\u2019s pretty true.\u201d I said this yesterday when I talked about reparations. When Black people are successful, we are often used as tokens of, \u201cIf he made it, that means Black people can make it.\u201d And I learned long ago, no, that means I got lucky several times. I think it is really convenient, especially when you become a person in a position of power and authority and wealth, and I\u2019m not saying I\u2019m all that, but I am saying that to start to buy your own bullshit, so then you can be Dr. Dre being like, \u201cAI is just a tool. Hey, man.\u201d<\/p>\n
I think that\u2019s the idea that we have allowed \u2026 I think it also ties into the fact that as much as we were told America didn\u2019t want a monarchy, we just didn\u2019t want that monarchy. We wanted our own monarchy. And you can see that in the fact that, \u201cLindsey Graham died, his sister should be the senator.\u201d What are you talking about? But she just won her primary. Did I answer any of your questions? We\u2019ll talk later at Pete\u2019s. It\u2019s just the idea that I think this is about how America has sold itself to itself, and right now the cracks are pulling apart is what\u2019s happening.<\/p>\n
Audience 2: So my question is, do we have the wrong focus? Because there\u2019s been a lot of things like AI is just a tool, but it\u2019s kind of focusing on how we are using the tool versus do we have the wrong focus? Are we deluding ourselves because who is giving us this tool? Why should we trust Sam Altman, Elon Musk, Peter Thiel?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Who\u2019ve given us lots of reasons not to trust them, each one of those people.<\/p>\n
Audience 2: Or Google, who went from, \u201cDon\u2019t do evil,\u201d to, \u201cDon\u2019t don\u2019t do evil,\u201d right? Are we deluding stuff they\u2019re going to give us a tool that we can use to do actual good versus just being deluded into thinking we can use this to do some good and they\u2019re pulling all the strings and ultimately it\u2019s the illusion of choice or power that we have?<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yes. Next question. No, I think that the idea being that is so frustrating is there\u2019s certain things that as Americans we take for granted and that it takes a while to sort of break out of, not so much people in this room probably, but the idea that you\u2019ll see people in the news arguing with the idea that healthcare can\u2019t be free. Around the world, they\u2019re like, \u201cWhat are you talking about you go bankrupt for medical bills. What\u2019s a medical bill?\u201d You know what I mean? And the idea that we have accepted that if you fall to a certain level, then you\u2019re just supposed to be homeless, where in other civilizations they go, \u201cNo, no, no. If we have enough, we\u2019ll take care of everybody.\u201d<\/p>\n
We\u2019ve accepted the fact that there are countries, developed nations that don\u2019t believe in life in prison no matter what the crime is. They just check in with you every so often and be like, \u201cAre you still \u2026 Oh, you are. You stay here.\u201d But the idea that we accept that people should go to jail for life for things that you\u2019re like, \u201cI don\u2019t even understand that the first thing was a crime.\u201d<\/p>\n
And so the idea that there are certain things that we have been, again, this is back to what you\u2019re saying, that have been baked into the definition of what it is to be an American \u2026 And Berkeley is different. If this is happening in Mobile, Alabama, this right here, actually probably be just the cool people who showed up, but the idea being that this conversation sounds very radical in other rooms, in other places, that it does not sound that radical here.<\/p>\n
And so the idea of being that I think that\u2019s why it becomes up to us to really actively reject the framing of these things, and I appreciate what you\u2019re saying about saying AI as a tool. It\u2019s just a way to shift the conversation away, but then there\u2019s a question of should it be a tool? And then there\u2019s also this idea of we have a real limited idea of what the public good is and what society owes you.<\/p>\n
And so when you say things like, \u201cHousing is a right, food is a basic right,\u201d there are people who will fight you on that while we\u2019re also throwing away food every day. That\u2019s why I think that whatever\u2019s happening now is not about, \u201cWell, once we get the Democrat on the left in office next time, it\u2019ll be all back to dah dah dah dah dah,\u201d and that\u2019s why I try to really sort of highlight the people in public office who I\u2019m like, \u201cThat person is fighting for the people, not for the organization at the top.\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Well, because I mean, back to the theme of what underpins a lot of what you do, you challenge the systems, right? And we so often don\u2019t look to the systems.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. I guess it is a conscious decision. Yeah. No, I was in New York. Me and my wife were in New York for two years with my first TV show. The show got canceled. And there was this idea of do we stay in New York or do we go back to the Bay Area? She\u2019s got a lot of family out here.<\/p>\n
And at some point I was like, I don\u2019t want to be \u2026 And New York is fine, but I don\u2019t want to be somewhere where I\u2019m not grounded. That\u2019s a big part of it. If I go back to the Bay, my wife\u2019s family\u2019s there, I can move my mom out here. People have known me for a long time out here. I have relationships like this. I\u2019ve been in this building, whatever. So the idea being that part of my story is not feeding myself to the beast.<\/p>\n
I had Megan Rapinoe basically say to me on her podcast recently, \u201cIt seems like you could be more successful than you are.\u201d And I was like, \u201cI never thought about that, but yeah.\u201d I don\u2019t even have choices before me that I can make those choices because I\u2019m not in the place where those choices are offered to me. I get things all the time where like, \u201cCome out, this weekend in New York.\u201d \u201cI can\u2019t be there.\u201d<\/p>\n
And part of me is like, \u201cAlso, that sounds awful.\u201d To me, it\u2019s making sure that I\u2019m not even in position. This only happens because I live in the Bay Area. I\u2019m not trying to say anything, but a plane ticket from New York would\u2019ve wiped out whatever I\u2019m being paid here. But here it\u2019s like I can come be here. He\u2019s getting paid. Come on, I got kids. But the idea being that to be here and to sit here is important to me because this is my community and I know I\u2019m going to run into you somewhere at the farmer\u2019s market and you\u2019ll be like, \u201cI saw you at that thing. I didn\u2019t agree. Great. Anyway, kale.\u201d<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: So we have one more?<\/p>\n
Audience 3: Hi. Just wanted to say shout out to Mobile. My granddad\u2019s from there.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Oh, yes. See, I knew we had one more.<\/p>\n
Audience 3: I have a background in astronomy and I\u2019ve watched a lot of folks in astronomy, astrophysics and physics and other academics do the Ph.D. to big tech company kind of well-trod path. I\u2019m curious to hear about your thoughts on that, that machine learning and generative AI was something that maybe started in academic spaces and then was developed into big tech spaces in Silicon Valley. And I\u2019d just love to hear your thoughts on the academia big tech connection.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: I mean, my wife\u2019s a Ph.D. in critical dance theory, so she was not welcomed into tech, but I do understand \u2026 (laughs). I mean, critical dance theory, guys. I mean, although she\u2019s more qualified than Sam Altman, which doesn\u2019t take much. OK, I\u2019m going to stop talking. But I am certainly a person who believes in the pursuit of knowledge for the sake of knowledge. I\u2019m certainly a person who believes in let\u2019s just follow our noses and see where we end up. I think the problem is, and one of the reasons that academics end up in those tech spaces is because education will bankrupt you.<\/p>\n
And I think the idea is, again, we\u2019re upside down. We\u2019re just upside down. There are countries where they think \u2026 Canada\u2019s big on this. There\u2019s a certain amount of funding that goes into the arts because they believe it\u2019s important to have the arts. And it\u2019s funny to say that, but here in America, as we know, every public school\u2019s smaller and smaller art programs, have no art programs, have no music programs.<\/p>\n
And so the idea being that I think it\u2019s important for us to prioritize the art and knowledge for knowledge\u2019s sake, and I think the problem is then once you have that knowledge, who are you handing it off to? And as long as we live under a system of capitalism, you\u2019re going to hand it off to the person who has the most money, and we have enough evidence to show that\u2019s never the best person. It\u2019s never the best person, the person who wants to monetize the idea. It\u2019s the person who wants to free the idea. And I think Google, as you said, started with the idea of wanting to free the idea. OpenAI was a nonprofit at one point.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: Well, not that long ago.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the idea being that American capitalism goes, \u201cOh, come over here. Come over here.\u201d And I think for me, that\u2019s why I\u2019ve tried not to go over there. I just know that that\u2019s not for me over there. And I think those of us who know that\u2019s not for us, it\u2019s not an easier path, but I do think that we have to have more of us who choose not to just go over there. And it\u2019s also, I\u2019m never the person who\u2019s like, \u201cDon\u2019t take that job. Don\u2019t get your \u2026\u201d I mean, it\u2019s a different conversation that we can have outside, but the idea being that I think those of us who know it\u2019s wrong have to be OK making different choices and saying, \u201cOver there might pay better, but it\u2019s not going to be better and it\u2019s not who I am.\u201d<\/p>\n
Audience 4: Thank you for your work generally and for tonight. I appreciated your reminder that we need to use our power to say no, and I\u2019m wondering if there is a future with AI that you want to say yes to.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Again, I\u2019m not anti-technology. The idea being that yes, I am down for a future of AI that doesn\u2019t exist under American capitalism, which is almost like an Octavia Butler novel waiting to happen because I think that\u2019s the problem is that AI existing under the current system of American capitalism means you get what we have right now, which is like it just is being sort of foisted onto us without the idea of is it helpful to us? I think we all know Meta owes us a lot more money than $18 billion.<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: OK. So let\u2019s end it there. I think that\u2019s a very strong \u2026<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Let\u2019s go get Mark Zuckerberg!<\/p>\n
(Applause)<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: (Laughs) Please join me in thanking Kamau Bell for being here with us.<\/p>\n
W. Kamau Bell: Give it up for my mom!<\/p>\n
Michael Bolden: And for his mom.<\/p>\n
(Applause)<\/p>\n
(Music: \u201cNo One Is Perfect\u201d by HoliznaCC0)<\/p>\n
Anne Brice (outro):\u00a0You\u2019ve been listening to\u00a0Berkeley Talks, a\u00a0UC Berkeley News\u00a0podcast from Strategic Communications at Berkeley. Follow us wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can find all of our podcast episodes, with transcripts and photos, on\u00a0UC Berkeley News\u00a0at news.berkeley.edu\/podcasts.<\/p>\n
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