This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions.<\/p>\n
archived recording 1<\/p>\n
Love now and always.<\/p>\n
archived recording 2<\/p>\n
Did you fall in love last night?<\/p>\n
archived recording 3<\/p>\n
Just tell her I love her.<\/p>\n
archived recording 4<\/p>\n
Love is stronger than anything you can feel.<\/p>\n
archived recording 5<\/p>\n
[SIGHS]: For the love.<\/p>\n
archived recording 6<\/p>\n
Love.<\/p>\n
archived recording 7<\/p>\n
And I love you more than anything.<\/p>\n
archived recording 8<\/p>\n
(SINGING) What is love?<\/p>\n
archived recording 9<\/p>\n
Here\u2019s to love.<\/p>\n
archived recording 10<\/p>\n
Love.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
From \u201cThe New York Times,\u201d I\u2019m Anna Martin. This is \u201cModern Love.\u201d And today, on the show, I\u2019m talking to Dr. Eli Sheff.<\/p>\n
[MUSIC PLAYING]<\/p>\n
Dr. Eli is an expert in polyamory. For most of her career, she\u2019s been studying the ins and outs of what it means to be in poly relationships. And for the past 30 years, she\u2019s been studying the lives of kids who grew up in poly families. OK, so as a single woman in her early 30s living in Brooklyn, I hear the word \u201cpoly\u201d a lot. It feels like everyone wants to be poly, or went on a few dates with someone who\u2019s poly, or had a poly phase in college. It feels like we\u2019re at peak poly saturation.<\/p>\n
But Dr. Eli first heard about polyamory in the early \u201890s, when barely anyone even used that word. And once she learned a little bit about it, she had to understand it, not just as a researcher. Dr. Eli had to decide whether polyamory was right for her. In our conversation, Dr. Eli tells me what she\u2019s learned from talking to the kids who grew up with polyamorous parents, kids who are now old enough to make their own relationship choices. Plus, she has advice for people trying to figure out if poly is right for them.<\/p>\n
[MUSIC PLAYING]<\/p>\n
Dr. Eli Sheff, welcome to \u201cModern Love.\u201d<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Thanks so much for having me. I\u2019m thrilled to be here.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
We\u2019re thrilled to have you. How did polyamory first come on your radar?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
I was 22. And I was in college, dating this woman that I was super crushed out on. And she was not that interested in me, so I was kind of heartbroken and thought, all right, I\u2019m going to just dabble in relationships with men for a little while because it\u2019s just so much easier to find a man to date. Like, they\u2019ll come on to me, whereas if I\u2019m going to find a woman, I\u2019ve got to be the one doing all the work.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
You\u2019re like, ah, I\u2019ll give men a try. They\u2019re easier. Yeah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Exactly, and kind of disposable, you know. I was like, I\u2019m going to just dabble with these dudes until I get back to real relationships with women. And so, I meet this guy, and I\u2019m thinking, of course, he\u2019s disposable, so when he tells me on our first date that he never wants to be monogamous, and he never wants to get married \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Ah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 I\u2019m like, whatever, freak. I don\u2019t care.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
You\u2019re like, so I\u2019m in love with this woman. Yeah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Yes, and you are going to be going away in five minutes \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
You\u2019re a distraction, yeah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 so you and your weird \u2014 whatever, I don\u2019t care about that.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
And wait, can I ask, did he use the word \u201cmonogamous,\u201d if you can remember, in that conversation?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Yes.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
He did? OK.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
He was very clear.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
And you knew what that was? OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Yeah, but I had never heard the word, \u201cpolyamory.\u201d He hadn\u2019t. He was just like, I don\u2019t want monogamy.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t want one partner and just one partner.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Right, I want multiple partners. And I was like \u2014 I mean, I had kind of a negative reaction to it from the get-go. Like, OK, that\u2019s weird. That doesn\u2019t sound good to me. That sounds like a lot of work.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Yeah, I was going to say, and why did it seem your gut reaction \u2014 again, this is many years ago, but what was underneath that feeling?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
At first, it was just rejection of, that does not sound like fun to me. That sounds like a hot mess. And that is not appealing.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Lots of logistics.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Yes, and then, as we got to know each other and I fell in love with him, which totally shocked me \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Aha.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 I, like, I think, many other monogamously oriented people, I was like, well, wait a minute, does this mean I\u2019m too fat? I\u2019m bad in bed. I\u2019m boring. And what is the lack in me that you need other partners? And he kept saying, no, no, no, it\u2019s not about you. It has nothing to do with you. No matter who he was with, he would need to be with multiple partners. And I was like, really? That just sounds weird.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Bring me into that moment. Was there a conversation you remember having with him where you were grappling with this desire of his and this insecurity it was bringing up for you?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
10 years of conversation \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Wow, OK.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 around that, and he just couldn\u2019t seem to let go of it. He brought it up all the time \u2014 all the time. And he \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
And was he acting on it? Or was he \u2014<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
No, he really wanted me to find us a woman that we could share. So we didn\u2019t this term yet at the time, but there\u2019s a term for a female-male couple that is looking for a woman that they can both be with, and that is unicorn hunter, because this kind of free-floating bisexual woman who\u2019s not in other relationships and just wants to attach herself to a couple and move to their goat farm in North Dakota and raise their children for them, she is so rare that she\u2019s mythical. I\u2019m picking up what you\u2019re putting down. The goat farm really put it into stark relief. I got you. I guess, were there some conversations that made you feel like, maybe I should give this a try? Maybe I\u2019m being too resistant. I\u2019m curious about that side.<\/p>\n
Definitely, in part that he wanted a really big family.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Ah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
And we had two children. And that was really as much as I felt like I could handle.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
You\u2019ve had kids at this point. OK, yeah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Yes, and that I didn\u2019t want to bear any more children, and I didn\u2019t feel like I could manage any more children. I was working on my PhD, teaching at night, trying to write my dissertation during the day with two small children. He would work during the day, take care of the kids at night while I was working.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
It does seem like a lot.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
It was a lot. And he was like, you know what? If we could have another woman who really wants to take care of kids \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Ah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 and you could be, like, the 1950s dad, that you just come home from work, read your newspaper, while other people take care of the kids and make food and clean the house and stuff. And so, not only is this mythical unicorn woman going to want to be equally attracted to both of us, she\u2019s going to have a house cleaning fetish.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
When you put it that way, I want to take us back in time just a bit, maybe even before kids, to the earlier conversations about his desire to have multiple partners. When do you remember hearing the word, \u201cpolyamory,\u201d for the first time? Because you said he wasn\u2019t using that word. When did you first hear that word?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
So I was driving home from grad school in the snow on this really slick road. I\u2019m feeling kind of nervous. So I\u2019m listening to National Public Radio, as I always did when I was in the car. And the host was interviewing this person, Ryam Nearing, who \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
I remember the name.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Yeah. Oh, yeah, she\u2019s a big deal in the polyamorous community, and especially at the time. She had started this organization called Loving More.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Ah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
And they were talking to her about her organization and how this organization was having an open house, a meeting in a public room in the library that anyone who wanted information could come to. And I was just like, oh, my god, that\u2019s it. That\u2019s the thing he\u2019s been talking about.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Do you remember how she defined polyamory at the time? What about that word and its definition clicked for you? Like, oh, my god, that\u2019s what my partner has been talking about this whole time.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Loving openly and honestly, loving multiple people at the same time, having multiple partner relationships, but not hiding it from anyone.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Gotcha.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
And that\u2019s exactly what he had been talking about.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
So you\u2019re mentioning a kind of \u2014 or you\u2019re describing, rather, a kind of aha moment, like, oh, my god, there\u2019s a name for this thing that he\u2019s been talking about and that we\u2019ve been grappling with as a couple. Did it make you more curious about it?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Absolutely, and especially hearing that they were having this meeting, public meeting coming up. So I was like \u2014 I went home, and I was like, honey, we\u2019ve got to go to this thing because \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
You and your partner.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Yes, because this is driving me nuts. I feel so riled up about it all the time. And I want to find out from people, how do they do this? How do they manage this in their lives without just feeling awful all the time? Because it really was \u2014 I was feeling just awful about it \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
I\u2019m sorry.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 that he wanted these other people and wouldn\u2019t let it go. He kept bringing it up over and over. So I was like, all right, let\u2019s just go talk to these folks and find out what\u2019s going on.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
You come home. You\u2019re like, we got to go to this meetup. Tell me about it. I\u2019m so curious.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
It\u2019s this big room in a library stuffed with people, like standing room only.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Wow.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
I know. I was shocked, how many people were there. And there\u2019s people talking about having been in relationships for 20 and 30 years, very happy relationships together.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
With multiple partners?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Yes, and I\u2019m like, how does that not just kill your heart? So they\u2019re like, it\u2019s the opposite. Their heart opens and blooms with all of these additional people. They really do experience it as more love.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
And were you just listening? Were you asking questions? What was your presence in that meeting in that room?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
During the meeting itself, I only listened. And then after the meeting, I went up to a person who later participated in my study, and I was just like, you say that you\u2019re so happy with this. And when I think about this, it just feels terrible to me. How do you manage that? And of course, her answer was long and complicated and hard to put into a nugget. But basically, she was like, I get a lot out of it. Sure, it comes with some costs, but she said it benefits her far more than the costs associated with it.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
It also, I think, is a very open-hearted question for you to ask a stranger who you\u2019ve just seen talk in a room, to go up and be like, listen, when I think about this, I feel hurt and scared \u2014 me paraphrasing what you said. That\u2019s a quite vulnerable thing to approach someone with, I think.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Thanks. Interestingly enough, I guess, the polyamorous people in general, they\u2019re very used to talking about their feelings. They\u2019re used to having challenging conversations. They\u2019re used to looking inside and seeing what part of this is insecurity on my part. They\u2019re introspective folks, so it wasn\u2019t unusual for them to have this conversation. It certainly felt exposing to me, but I was fine with it.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
After this first meeting, are you like, well, that\u2019s it, I\u2019m not going anymore, or are you like, I got to know more?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Not only I\u2019ve got to know more, but these people, these humans are delightful.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Did your feelings about polyamory start to change?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Absolutely. I felt much less afraid of it. It seemed much less \u2014 I don\u2019t know \u2014 \u201csinister\u201d is the word that occurs to me. And I hate to use that word because it makes it sound so scary, but it definitely felt very heavy to me to be caught in this \u201cI really want to be with this man.\u201d He\u2019s really important to me, but I really don\u2019t want to do this thing that\u2019s really important to him.<\/p>\n
And that felt very uncomfortable. And the more I came to learn about polyamory, the less threatening it felt, and the more comfortable with it I became. And I wondered, is this something I would want?<\/p>\n
[MUSIC PLAYING]<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
We\u2019ll be right back.<\/p>\n
[MUSIC PLAYING]<\/p>\n
Well, let\u2019s get into the study. So it\u2019s like, at a certain point, going to these poly meetups, polyamorous meetups, it started off as for your personal exploration, trying to understand your relationship. But at a certain point, you decide to actually study this, like write your dissertation on it. Tell me how that happened.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
So for about three years, I was a civilian, more approaching it, how does this impact my own life? But by then, I was in graduate school, and I was learning all of these research methods. And one of the research methods classes I had said do an interview with someone, practice interviewing skills. So I interviewed a polyamorous person, and the class was like, oh, my god, this is amazing. This is your dissertation right here. And I was like, really?<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
[GASPS]:<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Oh, but nobody\u2019s done research on it yet, you know? And at the time, I wasn\u2019t aware there were two other researchers looking into this, and that was it worldwide. And none of us knew about each other at first. We all thought we were the only person doing this. And I mean, the community had been around, but the word hadn\u2019t been around for as long. And now, in 1996 \u2014 what year is it?<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
[LAUGHS]:<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
2026?<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
2026, so just 30 years, [LAUGHS]: or whatever. Yeah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Now in 2026 \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Yeah, yeah, yeah. [LAUGHS]<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 polyamory and other forms of consensual non-monogamy are fairly well-known.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Totally.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
People know they exist. But in 1996, it wasn\u2019t as much of a concept. It wasn\u2019t as widely known.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
I think it\u2019s such a good reminder that this is a word we hear \u2014 I hear casually as a single 30-something in Brooklyn all the time. But at the time, this was not spoken about. Some people didn\u2019t even know the word for this. But you were here studying people who were living this way. And you decide to focus your study of polyamory specifically on kids raised in polyamory \u2014<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Not at that point.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
No. Oh, gotcha, OK.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Not yet. I started out talking to the adults. And the method I chose was ethnography, which is primarily interviewing, but also, participant observation, meaning going places \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Embedding.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 and just hanging out. Exactly.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
But eventually, you decide to focus a long-term study on the kids in polyamorous families. And I\u2019m really curious about that choice. Why did you decide you were interested in studying children of poly families?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Partially, it was when I would talk about my research findings at conferences or other places, people would say, well, how does this impact the children? People kept asking about it, and I wondered, how are those kids doing? What is happening with them?<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
How did you set up the study? How many participants were there?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
I would say, it\u2019s kind of hard to count because some people participated only once, and some people let me interview them multiple times across the years. So, I\u2019m going to say about 213 people.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Wow. Wow, OK.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
And about 33 of them were children under 18, which are now some of them are in their 30s.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
How often did you talk to these kids as the study went on? Because it\u2019s now a 30-year-long study.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Some of them I\u2019ve spoken to four or five times. Some of them I\u2019ve only interviewed once. Some of them I hung out with quite a bit before I even interviewed them in that participant observation phase of going to campouts and things with polyamorous families and observing how the children would have their own little social structure. They would play in a group and tell the adults, OK, we\u2019re going over here now. And the adults would be like, OK, come back in 20 minutes or \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
And you\u2019d be like, I\u2019m going with those kids because I\u2019m studying those \u2014<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Yes, exactly.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
What kinds of questions were you asking? What were you curious to know?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
I would ask them all sorts of different things \u2014 how it felt to have multiple adults in their lives, what those adults did for them, how interacting with their peers, if it was ever an issue with that. And I would always ask them three different questions \u2014 one, did they think they would be polyamorous themselves when they grew up? And most of them said, I\u2019m not sure. It depends on who my partner is and what they want.<\/p>\n
One was, if you could choose, would you have chosen a different family to grow up in? And all of the children said no. They learned so much from this family, even though it was hard sometimes, and even though some of the things, they maybe wouldn\u2019t replicate in their own lives. It really said to me that these kids had their needs very well met.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Ah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
That their need for attention, affection, structure, all that \u2014 and that\u2019s not even talking about the practical needs of food and shelter, clothing.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
And then what was the third question you would always ask, in addition to many other questions?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
I would always ask, so are there any of your parents\u2019 partners that you really miss, that your parents broke up with, and you really miss them? And finally, one kid said, you ask that all the time, and you seem like you have an agenda around that. I do miss people. I miss all sorts of people. Very low down on the list are my parents\u2019 partners.<\/p>\n
And I was like, not only you are right. I totally had an agenda coming from the outside thinking, oh, this must be a big impact on these kids\u2019 lives, having parents\u2019 partners leave when the parents break up. And the kid was like, that\u2019s coming from you. That\u2019s not coming from us.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Interesting. Wow.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
I know.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Was that across the board, people were like, they do leave, and maybe I\u2019m sad, but that missing, that deep missing of the partner was not so much a factor in general for these kids? I\u2019m surprised by that.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Yes, in part because the parents put a lot of effort into having the children \u2014 if the children were attached to someone, that relationship could outlast the romantic relationship between the parents. And I saw that so much in these families. It was the non-sexual relationships that made the biggest difference.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
I want to make sure that we understand because it\u2019s really interesting, what you\u2019re saying. And I almost \u2014 I wish I had a flowchart, but this is a podcast and largely non-visual. So, maybe you could describe for me like, how are these poly families generally organized? Because you\u2019re saying non-sexual partners. So it\u2019s like two parents, biological parents, and then what? Each parent has their own partner. Talk to me about the structure of these poly families.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Frequently, there will be \u2014 so it often is the biological parents who are together. And frequently, when they very first come to polyamorous relating, many of them are coming, thinking, we want, much like my partner, my ex did, we want to be all together in one relationship. Many people realize that doesn\u2019t work that well. Like, you may be attracted to someone who may be attracted to you, but it doesn\u2019t mean they\u2019re attracted to your partner \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Huh, yeah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 or that you are always having a three-person relationship. That, really, what I find is that many people have their sexual relationships in dyads, two-person sexual relationship. But the social relationships are knit together, in a way. The polyamorous people call that a polycule \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Aha.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 like a molecule, only a polycule.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Polycule \u2014 this is a word, again, that we hear. So we\u2019re talking about this idea that kids can maintain emotional relationships with their parents\u2019 partners, even if the parent and the partner break up, correct?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Yes, absolutely. And perhaps, even more importantly, that it is the emotional relationships at the core of the polyamorous family, that, to the outside people, it\u2019s the sex that really stands out, because that\u2019s what distinguishes a polyamorous family from a monogamous family, is that the parents can have sex with other people. And so, the outside of that arrangement, the sex really stands out. But from the inside, the emotional relationships between and among people who are not sexual partners, that is the real backbone of the polyamorous family.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Can I ask in a zoomed-out way, what did kids tell you was the best thing, some of the best things about growing up in poly families?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
It really depended on their age. When they\u2019re little, they think all of the attention is great. When they\u2019re tweens, which is, like, 9 to 12 maybe, they think the practicality of getting a ride or \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Totally.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 one kid, yeah, makes \u2014 it\u2019s really nice for them. One kid was also telling me how he had gone to his mom and been like, Mom, I want some money to go to the store and get some candy. And the mom was like, no, did you do your chores? I\u2019m not giving you money. He goes to Mom\u2019s sweetie. Mom\u2019s sweetie is like, I have $10 and a Snickers. Do you need a ride to the store?<\/p>\n
[laughs]<\/p>\n
Because the partners \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
That is so sweet.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
I know, so sweet. The partners don\u2019t want to be \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Oh.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 the heavy part of parenting. They want to be, like, the fun aunt or uncle, where they don\u2019t want to deal with the kids\u2019 bad grades or something, or \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Because they don\u2019t have to, you know?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 make them clean their room. Exactly.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Whoa. Oh, I love that. So when you\u2019re a tween and you\u2019re looking to, perhaps, get your way or bend the rules a little, it\u2019s nice to have a person that\u2019s like, yeah, I got $10. Want a Snicker? It\u2019s nice to have a person that\u2019s not going to be super-disciplinarian. And then when teens \u2014 what did teens or young adults say was the best part of growing up in poly families?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
They found that the emotional and communication skills they learned in their families and the ability to be open-minded and interact with a wide range of people really helped them in their lives to navigate a constantly changing world and to be able to shift and see different angles and talk to new people in a way that they didn\u2019t see some of their peers successfully navigating.<\/p>\n
Especially I remember this one kid went to college and got a dorm mate. And his dorm mate had had a very sheltered upbringing. So this kid could not manage his own schedule, could not get up and get to class on time, was not doing homework because there was no one telling him to do it. He had come from this very sheltered, highly directive household, and he came out into the world and just floundered.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Ah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
The child from the polyamorous family had come from a much more, \u201clet\u2019s think about it, let\u2019s talk about it.\u201d What are your boundaries? How do they fit with the family\u2019s boundaries? Much more self-responsibility to an age-appropriate extent.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Of course.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
They weren\u2019t like, OK, you four-year-old, go grill up some steaks. But they were like, OK, you four-year-old, you know if you don\u2019t wear shoes, your feet are going to hurt.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Huh. It\u2019s like, the communication that\u2019s necessary for a polyamorous family to work seeps into the kids\u2019 consciousness and becomes a way that they operate in the world, interface with other people in, of course, as clearly as we can see in this dorm room example, a really \u2014 a beneficial way. This person can talk about what they need, prioritize. I mean, and of course, let\u2019s just say, kids who grew up in monogamous families can also have boundaries \u2014<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Absolutely.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
\u2014 and communicate or whatever. But the fact that this is just a sort of de facto way of communicating between all of the members of a polycule, whoa, how else were they finding that their background influenced the way they move through the world or their own relationships?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
In part, it was their ability to interact with all sorts of different people who weren\u2019t like either themselves or the people they grew up with because they grew up interacting with a wider range of people, not only multiple adults, but also, frequently, members of the polyamorous community.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Interesting, yeah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
So they had a high-communication upbringing, which translated into being able to talk to their professors at college, for example, without feeling incredible anxiety about, oh, my god, I\u2019ve got to talk to this adult. They could go in and talk to their professors in office hours or something. They could make new friends in a way that if they had lived there for a while and had established this community, and then they got sick, for example, they had people they could call on to bring them soup or Kleenex, or whatever.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
It\u2019s like natural community makers, yeah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Exactly. Oh, I love that. Yes, natural community makers, because they\u2019re coming from this community-based, high-discussion origin, and that they didn\u2019t necessarily love all those family meetings when they were 13. They got really sick of the constant discussion.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Of course.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
They were tired to death of the family meetings. But looking back on navigating, for example, who does the chores, moving forward in life, if we look statistically at reasons for divorce right now, conflict over unpaid labor is among the top three. So, coming from a family where the family could discuss we\u2019re having some hard feelings about this unpaid labor. How do we address this? Let\u2019s make a chore wheel that everyone has a different chore, and the kids were sick to death of the talk about the chore wheel. But then, fast forward 15 years \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
It\u2019s really beneficial.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Yes, they know, first of all, that they should not put up with a partner who expects them to do all the unpaid labor. And second of all, that there are ways to negotiate how do we spread this unpaid labor around, besides gender.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Of course, everything \u2014 nothing can be all good or all bad, so I\u2019ll just, on the other hand, say, what were some of the things you heard from kids that were the worst things about growing up in a poly family?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
There were some things that stood out to me as greater disadvantages, such as the stigma of being in a family that other people look at and think, that\u2019s a weird family. I had expected to hear a lot more of that, and that they did, certainly, experience that to some extent. But because polyamorous families, especially at that time, but even now, they often fly under the social radar \u2014 a lot of kids have multiple parents because their bio parents divorced and remarried other people \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
That\u2019s so true.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 or split up and remarried. So, the presence of multiple adults is not unusual at all.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
I\u2019m also thinking, just from my own teenage experience, that there\u2019s a benefit to having multiple parents you can ask for $10 from or whatever, but there\u2019s a really negative spin to that, where it\u2019s like, when I was saying I was doing one thing, but I was really going to a party, if I had to [LAUGHS]: keep that lie going to multiple adults, and not just two or whatever, that would have been tough for me. I feel like there would have been a thing where, when I\u2019m a teen, having a lot of parents around actually wouldn\u2019t be a good thing anymore.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
And you nailed it. That was their number one complaint \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Was it really?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 actually. The number one was that they couldn\u2019t get away with anything. If they were trying to sneak out, somebody was still awake. Somebody was a night owl and was gaming at 3 o\u2019clock in the morning and sees them trying to sneak back in.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Oh, my god. These kids, you\u2019ve been talking to some of them for 30 years, not all the time, but you\u2019ve been checking in with them over the course of 30 years. Have you gotten attached to some of them? I know this is your job, and you\u2019re a scientist and these types of things, but have you developed affection for these kids?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Absolutely. One of the kids that I know the best, I have watched her from the time she was a small child to, now, she is partnered and has her own baby.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Wow.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
But just so sweet to see her go from about that age, about four, when I met her, to, now, she\u2019s an adult. She\u2019s got this education.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Is she in a polyamorous relationship?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
She\u2019s got this partner. She is in a polyamorous relationship \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Look at that.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 actually, with her husband that she just adores. And they are doing great.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
So, Eli, then you talk to the kid, and now you have the grandchildren of polyamorous families, correct?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
That kid is too small for me to talk to, but I would love to \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
[LAUGHS]: In five years.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 find out.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
In five years.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Yes. Wow.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
That\u2019s the future of your study.<\/p>\n
[MUSIC PLAYING]<\/p>\n
Stay with us.<\/p>\n
[MUSIC PLAYING]<\/p>\n
So when you start writing your dissertation, which, again, starts with interviewing polyamorous adults. You still are undecided on the question of your relationship, but then as you continue to do this work, where did you land?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Well, I would say that as an intellectual, things that frighten me, I feel like if I can understand it, it won\u2019t scare me anymore. And actually, the idea of polyamory doesn\u2019t scare me anymore.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Anymore.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
But it took me 30 years to realize that being afraid of something is different than not wanting to do it.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Whoa.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
I\u2019m not scared of it anymore. But I still don\u2019t want to do it. When I\u2019m in love with someone, I have literally no interest in other people. Even if I have the full permission to go out with other people, it\u2019s like, I can\u2019t \u2014 what I think of it as, you know those power strips \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Yes.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 where that they have multiple plugs?<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Yes, uh-huh, uh-huh.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
I have one plug, and that\u2019s it. And I have tried to bud another plug. I\u2019ve tried to solder one on. I\u2019ve tried to expand my plug.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Do an extension cord. Yeah, whatever.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Exactly. I just have the one plug, and it\u2019s something I cannot change about myself. And I think the people with multiple plugs, that is something they can\u2019t change about themselves. I think most people have an indeterminate number of plugs. I think that\u2019s where the majority of humans fall.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
We\u2019re all just a bunch of power strips running around. And to overextend your wonderful metaphor or visual, do you think that someone might have one plug for one part of their life, but then, perhaps, have a few more plugs later on? Can the number of plugs change?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Absolutely. I think for some people, it can. And I found I have different plugs for romance and sex. My sex power strip has more plugs than my romance power strip.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
I think this question of, is polyamory for me, is one that a lot of people have. And so, I would love to get your insight as to how we can begin to ask this question to ourselves, what we should consider. What are the questions someone should ask themselves if they\u2019re considering polyamory?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
I think one of the main questions \u2014 a lot of people start with, do I want multiple partners? And that, I think, is a smart one. But it\u2019s only half of the equation. Not only do you want multiple partners, but imagine yourself at home with the kids, folding laundry, making mac and cheese, while your partner is in Mexico at a beach resort with their sweetie. How does that land with you? Can you share \u2014 lots of us can think, oh, yes, I would like multiple partners, but one of the biggest issues around a successful polyamorous relationship is, how do you feel when your partner is out with someone else?<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
That is a really interesting reframing of where we should put the focus. It\u2019s like, yeah, of course, I\u2019d love to have another partner, but it\u2019s like, how would you feel if your partner was out with their sweetie? Are there qualities that make someone a good fit for polyamory? And the converse \u2014 are there qualities that make someone a bad fit for polyamory?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
For this, I really did a deep dive into the relationship satisfaction literature. For non-monogamy in general, there\u2019s a few things, characteristics, that people who like novelty tend to be better-suited for non-monogamy, people who have what they call a faster life history. That\u2019s a social science term, meaning they\u2019ve probably moved around a lot. They\u2019ve probably had a whole bunch of different kinds of jobs.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Interesting, yeah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
They started dating younger, and they\u2019ve dated more people. They\u2019re more likely to be interested in polyamory or non-monogamy than the people who have never left their hometown, who like to have one job and really stick with it, a more \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Steady \u2014 steady way of life, yeah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Yes, exactly. And not that any either of those are better than the other, but just what kind of wiring tends to make you enjoy polyamory.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
We\u2019re talking about the kinds of people that will be drawn to polyamory that would make for a good, as it were, polyamorous partner. But I wonder, on the flip side of that, is there a type of person who just should not do polyamory at all?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Absolutely. I think about jealousy now as like nodes in the brain, kind of. And some people have very few of those nodes, and they get activated by very few things. That person is a much better fit for an open relationship. If people know themselves and they know that they get really jealous about a lot of things, and it\u2019s very painful for them, then trying to share a partner with someone else might not be a good choice.<\/p>\n
The other thing is, it might vary by relationship. So, if they\u2019re in a relationship where everything is really good, and it\u2019s this one thing they\u2019re having a mismatch around, but \u2014 so they\u2019re having a mismatch around exclusivity or openness. But in other ways, they\u2019re on the same page about whether or not they want children, how to spend money, religion, work, free time. If they click on all those other things, and this is the only thing that they\u2019re out of alignment on, it\u2019s much easier to manage than if they\u2019re out of alignment on exclusivity or openness, as well as disagree about whether they should have kids or not and have conflicting religious beliefs, and one of them wants to save, and one of them wants to spend. Then it\u2019s going to be the kiss of death for that relationship.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
I mean, I wonder, when your partner, when you were married to this guy, when you were with this guy who wanted to have multiple partners, and you were resistant \u2014 he was more into it than you were.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
By far.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
By far. This might be a situation other people find themselves in. One partner is more interested in polyamory than the other. And what is your advice on how to navigate that divide, as it were?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Generally, in that kind of what I think of as a mixed dynamic, where one person wants an open relationship and another wants an exclusive relationship, generally, if they can meet in the middle, where it\u2019s going to be probably more open than the exclusive person wants, but more closed than the polyamorous person was<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
What would that look like?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
So for some people, it looks like a hall pass, for example \u2014<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Ah.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
\u2014 that they can\u2019t have lovers in their home environment, but if they go on a trip, they could hook up with someone in Jamaica and not be in trouble for it, as long as don\u2019t bring any sexually transmitted infections home, don\u2019t get anybody pregnant, nobody gets to move in. For another folks I know, one of them really wants an open relationship, another one is certain that they want exclusivity. They have an agreement that they are exclusive, except for this one convention that the open person goes to.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Interesting.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
And at that convention, they can hook up with other people, but not outside of that. For other people, they can\u2019t find that middle ground. If someone is truly monogamous and not only wants monogamy for themselves, but wants to be in a monogamous relationship with their partner, that might not work. But what I found is when the monogamous person in that setting, when their needs are filled to overflowing, it\u2019s much easier for them to say, OK, honey, I don\u2019t want to connect with anybody else, but you go out and do your thing. I\u2019m going to go do my own thing.<\/p>\n
The monogamous person isn\u2019t sitting there in the dark, chewing on their nails, freezing and sad, but they are actively engaged in something else. And they feel like they get enough attention and affection and sex and goodies, emotional yumminess from their partner. It\u2019s much easier for them to give their partner room to go be with other people.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
That is so interesting. It\u2019s like, compromise where possible, and if not, then maybe it is not a fit. And we\u2019re in the place where one person has one plug, and there are multiple plugs, and it might not work. I mean, I guess, one maybe last question is, is there one thing \u2014 if you were to say one thing to people that they should know before trying polyamory, the thing in all caps, what would it be?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
I would say, it\u2019s no more evolved than monogamy. And there\u2019s a lot of polyamorous propaganda about polyamorous relationships being more mature and more evolved and superior to monogamy. And I would say, maybe some of them are. But some of them are a hot mess and certainly not superior to anything.<\/p>\n
There are monogamous people who are quite insightful and evolved, having very mature relationships, and there are polyamorous people having very mature relationships. There are monogamous people who are small and grasping and jealous, and there are polyamorous people who are small and grasping, and their jealousy may express in a different way.<\/p>\n
But according to polyamorous propaganda, it is, really, everyone should be polyamorous, could be. And if they would just put their big girl panties on, they could also be polyamorous. And I think that is not true. I think some people, you can be fully evolved and still not have the spoons or the time or the space in your life for multiple partners, that the people who do best in polyamory not only want multiple partners themselves, but they look at relationships as a skill that they can learn and get better at communicating, at meeting their partner\u2019s needs, at understanding their own boundaries, almost so that relationships become their hobby.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Coming at the heels of discussing how well-adjusted, by and large, these kids of polyamorous families are, I just, again, think it\u2019s really important to tether ourselves to \u2014 and yet, still, it\u2019s not more evolved. It\u2019s like, and it strikes me that one of our foremost experts on polyamory, you are someone who\u2019s wired for exclusivity. You know what I mean? You understand it so well, and still, this is not the way that your brain and your heart works.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Precisely.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
OK, I\u2019m going to close this here, Dr. Eli. When you were younger, what did you imagine your love life, your romantic life would look like?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
I thought I would be a monogamous lesbian. And it turns out I am primarily a lesbian. I had that one dude thing. And I mean, I\u2019m single right now, but if I ever get in another serious relationship, it\u2019s going to be monogamous.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Future partner, if you are even interested, what are you looking for? Knowing all that you know about the ways that different types of relationships can work, what are you looking for?<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
I crave autonomy in closeness.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
Oof.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
I like to have a lot of freedom, and I like to give my partner a lot of freedom. If I ever do get in another relationship, I want all their attention. But I want freedom within that attention \u2014 autonomy.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
I love autonomy in closeness. Put that on a T-shirt. I\u2019m looking for autonomy. And if you want, I hope you find that. I hope you find autonomy in closeness.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Thank you.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
And I hope I find it, too, actually, I\u2019ll just note. [LAUGHS]<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Here\u2019s to everyone finding whatever relationship works well for them.<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
No better way to close the interview. Dr. Eli Sheff, thank you so much for this conversation.<\/p>\n
eli sheff<\/p>\n
Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed chatting with you.<\/p>\n
[MUSIC PLAYING]<\/p>\n
anna martin<\/p>\n
The \u201cModern Love\u201d team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sara Curtis. This episode was produced by Sara Curtis. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Davis Land. Our mix engineer was Sophia Lanman. Original music in this episode by Rowan Niemisto, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music.<\/p>\n
The \u201cModern Love\u201d column is edited by Daniel Jones. And Miya Lee is the editor of \u201cModern Love\u201d projects. If you\u2019d like to submit an essay or a Tiny Love Story to \u201cThe New York Times,\u201d we\u2019ve got the instructions in our show notes. I\u2019m Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may…\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":310367,"comment_status":"","ping_status":"","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[6],"tags":[1214,84605,53964,84603,9,11,10,117386,3730,28282],"class_list":["post-310366","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","category-new-york","tag-celebrities","tag-dating-and-relationships","tag-families-and-family-life","tag-love-emotion","tag-new-york","tag-new-york-headlines","tag-new-york-news","tag-polyamory-and-non-monogamous-relationships","tag-research","tag-sex"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/us-ny\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/310366","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/us-ny\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/us-ny\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/us-ny\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/us-ny\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=310366"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/us-ny\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/310366\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/us-ny\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/310367"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/us-ny\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=310366"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/us-ny\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=310366"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newsbeep.com\/us-ny\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=310366"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}