In this episode of Space Minds, host David Ariosto speaks with Terry Hart, former NASA astronaut and mission specialist on the Space Shuttle Challenger. Hart reflects on the triumphs of early shuttle missions, the lessons of the Challenger tragedy, and how those experiences shape today\u2019s commercial space era led by companies like SpaceX and Blue Origin.<\/p>\n
Now a professor at Lehigh University, Hart shares insights on leadership, safety, and the enduring human drive to explore. This conversation connects the legacy of the Shuttle program to the future of human and commercial spaceflight.<\/p>\n
Click here for Notes and Transcript<\/p>\n
Time Markers<\/p>\n
00:00 \u2013 Episode introduction
00:26 \u2013 Welcome Terry
01:10 \u2013 Challenger
02:32 \u2013 The early Shuttle era
04:20 \u2013 Public perception
07:00 \u2013 The new challenges
08:44 \u2013 An early skeptic of commercial crew
09:59 \u2013 Spaceflight risk today
12:35 \u2013 Teaching the next generation and motivation
13:53 \u2013 On NASA and commercial roles
17:29 \u2013 IMAX and storytelling
19:35 \u2013 The future of space operations an human spaceflight
21:10 \u2013 The analogy between commercial aviation and spaceflight
22:31 \u2013 On risks
24:29 \u2013 Space is inherently optimistic
26:40 \u2013 Safety culture<\/p>\n
Transcript \u2013 Terry Hart Conversation<\/p>\n
This transcript has been edited-for-clarity.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 Terry Hart, it is really good to see you again.<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 Thank you, David. Good to see you, yeah.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 So let\u2019s get a little bit of context here. You\u2019re a former astronaut, former mission specialist on Challenger. You operated the IMAX camera for The Dream Is Alive, which helped deploy that long-duration exposure facility back in \u201984. Before we get into everything else, I think sometimes that\u2019s almost overlooked in the context of how big of a deal that was \u2014 the first real long-term exposure data in the harsh environment of low Earth orbit. It was this large, free-flying spacecraft that could conduct long-term experiments, and the value of that was incredible.<\/p>\n
But when I say Challenger, I don\u2019t think people think of that. Admittedly so, right? They think of what happened two years later \u2014 seventy-three seconds after launch on January 28, 1986 \u2014 and the loss of life that happened because of the failure of that rubber O-ring on the solid rocket booster, which failed in the cold weather. I remember myself being in grade school, and like a lot of kids across the country, teachers had turned their TVs on to watch that countdown because of Christa McAuliffe, the first teacher in space.<\/p>\n
In January, it will be forty years since that tragedy. It seems like one of those moments in our nation\u2019s history \u2014 JFK\u2019s assassination, 9\/11, Challenger, and then, years later, Columbia. You were part of that astronaut corps. You knew Dick Scobee, who commanded Challenger. Could you start us off by painting a picture of what that era was like \u2014 what that group was like, and the folks who were part of that mission?<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 Sure, yeah. It was a national tragedy, of course, especially with Christa McAuliffe on board. Dick Scobee was actually the pilot on my mission. We flew together on the fifth flight of Challenger. Then he was commander on the tenth flight \u2014 the 25th flight of the program. Mike Smith, his pilot, was my best friend there. It was a hard day for everybody.<\/p>\n
Most of us close to the program figured that at some point, you were likely to lose one. It\u2019s a dangerous business. Spacecraft fly about a hundred times faster than airplanes, and the energy involved goes with the square of that velocity \u2014 ten thousand times more energy to get into orbit than to take off in an airplane. So we knew it was always going to be dangerous.<\/p>\n
We figured maybe we\u2019d lose one because of something mechanical, like a turbine blade coming off, but to lose one because of a known problem that wasn\u2019t shared across the program \u2014 that was really disheartening. We certainly should not have lost that one. And I think similar feelings existed about Columbia \u2014 clear indicators of problems that should have gotten more attention.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 I think there was also this sense that some of these launches were no longer carried by major media outlets, even during the Apollo era. There was almost a criticism that the moon landing had become humdrum, and the same thing was happening with shuttle flights. Some saw it as routine \u2014 like commercial air travel. How did that change public perception, and what are the echoes of that as we move forward?<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 It\u2019s difficult because it\u2019s human nature. Once things start to look routine, we take our minds off them a bit. You need two things to run a safe, high-risk program like spaceflight will always be \u2014 leadership and teamwork.<\/p>\n
We had incredible leadership at NASA \u2014 people like Chris Kraft and Gene Kranz. They kept their foot on the pedal with safety and quality and didn\u2019t let anyone forget it. But that\u2019s hard to do, especially with budget and schedule pressures. Challenger happened, in part, because those pressures eroded communication \u2014 like Huntsville not sharing seal problems with Houston. That\u2019s a breakdown of teamwork, and it was terrible.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 Yeah, I mean, it\u2019s harder. There are more challenges now \u2014 long-term radiation exposure, micrometeoroids, space debris \u2014 especially that last one, which is increasing. But I wonder if you can relate those experiences to where the industry is now, with companies like SpaceX, Blue Origin, and Rocket Lab taking the lead.<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 That\u2019s a good question. The executives at these private companies need to be thinking about those same lessons \u2014 especially when human flight is involved. I was skeptical when NASA shut down the shuttle program and handed crew transport over to SpaceX.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 You were one of the skeptics?<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 Yeah, I was skeptical and concerned. We had that hiatus when we could only reach the Space Station using Russian Soyuz rockets, which was unfortunate. But the progress SpaceX has made is impressive \u2014 and continues to be. I hope the safety culture is strong there. Many of my former students work at SpaceX, and I think they take that seriously. Profit also motivates safety \u2014 just like Boeing and Airbus focus on safety because you can\u2019t sell airplanes that crash. SpaceX and Blue Origin need that same focus, especially when humans are aboard.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 That\u2019s the difference, right? We\u2019ve seen so much success in commercial launches, but the shuttle flew 135 missions or so. SpaceX hasn\u2019t come close to that yet in human flights. And if a Challenger-like disaster happened today, how would it affect public perception, legislators, and the momentum for exploration? How do we balance safety with the need to keep pushing technological boundaries?<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 It\u2019s in our nature to explore. That won\u2019t go away. People share in those next steps vicariously \u2014 we can\u2019t all go to Mars or the Moon, but we feel part of it. My students at Lehigh come with that same passion.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 You\u2019re a professor there at Lehigh?<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 Yes. And that passion often starts when they\u2019re young \u2014 maybe five years old \u2014 seeing something exciting happen in space. That spark drives them to study aerospace engineering, and I see that excitement every day. But we also have to balance that passion with risk. You need leadership to decide how much risk is acceptable. You can\u2019t eliminate it \u2014 but you can manage it, and you can never compromise safety for budget or schedule.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 You know, I wonder if you can take what you just said and relate it to the broader paradigm. NASA now leans more on commercial companies. That\u2019s part of how Washington sees the new space race \u2014 with China, for example, and programs like CLPS and Artemis. The commercial sector operates in low Earth orbit, but now it\u2019s expanding toward the Moon and even Mars. How do you feel about exploration shifting from a nationalized effort to something more commercial?<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 I wouldn\u2019t have predicted that shift, but it makes sense. Decades ago, breakthroughs came from DoD funding \u2014 now the government buys commercial tech instead. The same thing is happening in space. Companies like SpaceX can push exploration because of passion \u2014 Elon Musk wants to go to Mars \u2014 but it\u2019s not self-sustaining. You still need NASA for the hard stuff: propulsion systems, nuclear power, lunar resources. That\u2019s where there\u2019s no immediate profit. But yes, it\u2019s remarkable that a company could help fund a mission to Mars just because its CEO wants to.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 That\u2019s a great point. No private company is building its own James Webb Space Telescope, but you mentioned television \u2014 that\u2019s a good segue to your work with IMAX. You operated the IMAX camera on Challenger. For those who haven\u2019t seen The Dream Is Alive, what was that like, knowing you were capturing this for audiences on Earth?<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 We were the first crew to fly the IMAX camera, and it was a great experience. I got to know Graham Ferguson, the head of IMAX, really well. On the ground, the camera was huge and heavy, and changing film in a light-proof bag was tough. But in space, it was easy \u2014 weightlessness made it effortless. It was actually one of the few things that\u2019s easier in space than on Earth.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 Yeah, and that was more than forty years ago. Challenger was more than forty years ago. Now we\u2019re talking about Moon bases, Mars, and telescopes like James Webb peering back to the dawn of the universe. What does that say to you about the future of operations in space and human spaceflight? Are we entering a new golden age?<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 I think so. Technology, especially AI, is key. When you go as far as Mars, the communication delay is thirty or forty minutes round trip, so you can\u2019t rely on real-time control from Earth. We\u2019ll need either humans or AI to make real-time decisions out there. AI can also make space more accessible and efficient \u2014 we\u2019re crossing an important threshold in how we operate in space.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 Do you think we\u2019ll ever reach a point where spaceflight is as routine as commercial aviation?<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 Gradually, maybe, but the physics are just so different. The energy to get into orbit will always make it more dangerous than flying. But we\u2019ll keep improving \u2014 better propulsion, reusable systems, bases on the Moon \u2014 and we\u2019ll learn how to live in space as we move farther out.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 It\u2019s interesting, too, in terms of public perception. People no longer gather around TVs the way they did during Apollo or Challenger. What do you say to your students about exploration \u2014 knowing that someday, others will likely die in space?<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 We focus on the positive, but always keep risk in mind. When you\u2019re young, like I was when I joined NASA, you accept the danger because being part of exploration is worth it. Then you spend your career minimizing that risk. My students are optimistic \u2014 they don\u2019t need to be convinced. They want to go out there and make it happen.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 The interesting thing about space is that it\u2019s inherently optimistic \u2014 full of infinite possibilities. As a journalist, I\u2019ve seen that mix of people: engineers, machinists, physicists \u2014 all working side by side. There\u2019s a camaraderie there. But as commercial space grows, so do the risks. Would you agree that there\u2019s still a big question mark about what comes next?<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 That\u2019s part of the excitement. In my lectures, I take students through a century of flight \u2014 from the Wright Brothers to the Space Station. The pace of progress has been staggering, and it\u2019s only accelerating.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 Alarmingly fast, right? Especially now with AI and quantum technology.<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 Exactly. But if you look back 100 years, it\u2019s clear how far we\u2019ve come. The safety culture in aviation evolved too \u2014 it used to be far more dangerous. The same thing will happen in space. We\u2019ll evolve, just as aviation did, and in a hundred years, people will look back amazed.<\/p>\n
David Ariosto \u2013 I think that\u2019s a good place to leave it. Terry Hart \u2014 former astronaut, mission specialist on Challenger, professor at Lehigh, and operator of that IMAX camera on the 1984 STS-41C flight \u2014 thank you so much for joining us.<\/p>\n
Terry Hart \u2013 Thank you, David. Nice to be with you.<\/p>\n
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