This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I\u2019m Amy Goodman.<\/p>\n
We turn now to The Alabama Solution, the Oscar-nominated documentary that takes viewers inside what\u2019s been described as \u201cAmerica\u2019s deadliest prison system,\u201d the film based on footage secretly recorded on cellphones by prisoners locked up in Alabama. Some of them featured in the film were recently sent to solitary confinement. This is the film\u2019s trailer.<\/p>\n
UNIDENTIFIED PRISON STAFF: I know you\u2019re grieving, but I just \u2014 I wanted to tell you that your son was murdered. They sweep stuff underneath the rug all the time.<\/p>\n
STACY GEORGE: If you\u2019re an inmate in Alabama prison, you\u2019re probably praying every night that nothing bad happens to you. It\u2019s dangerous and volatile. It could explode at any moment.<\/p>\n
SANDY RAY: I mean, it\u2019s corrupt. That\u2019s all you can say.<\/p>\n
TINA MORROW: They\u2019re hiding something.<\/p>\n
PRISON OFFICIAL: We\u2019re finished.<\/p>\n
ANDREW JARECKI: What are we finished with?<\/p>\n
PRISON OFFICIAL: Filming. Filming.<\/p>\n
ANDREW JARECKI: Why?<\/p>\n
MELVIN RAY: Can you hear me?<\/p>\n
CHARLOTTE KAUFMAN: Yeah.<\/p>\n
MELVIN RAY: Hold on a minute. Police are here.<\/p>\n
CHARLOTTE KAUFMAN: Oh, OK.<\/p>\n
MELVIN RAY: Don\u2019t talk.<\/p>\n
KINETIK JUSTICE: We have record numbers of people leaving out of here in body bags. They don\u2019t want the public to see what\u2019s really going on on the inside.<\/p>\n
MELVIN RAY: How can a journalist go into a war zone but can\u2019t go into a prison in the United States of America?<\/p>\n
The state is settling one lawsuit after another. There\u2019s no consequences for their actions.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s not the inmates that\u2019s killing them folks. It\u2019s the guards.<\/p>\n
ATTORNEY GENERAL STEVE MARSHALL: There is an argument that there is some systemic problem within all of our facilities, and I wholeheartedly disagree with that.<\/p>\n
KINETIK JUSTICE: How can you defend this?<\/p>\n
SANDY RAY: That one guard, he knew something. I can tell he was a liar.<\/p>\n
JEFFERSON DUNN: We are going to pursue it based on the facts to the fullest extent that \u2014\u00a0that we\u2019re allowed.<\/p>\n
KINETIK JUSTICE: Their biggest fear is to see us come together on one accord. We\u2019ve got to take our power back. We have to come together and make a stand that our life is worth something.<\/p>\n
PRISONER: I came to prison in 1985. I know what these folks will do.<\/p>\n
KINETIK JUSTICE: We have been taking life-and-death risk to get this information out while we still can.<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: That\u2019s the trailer to The Alabama Solution, the HBO Original documentary, available to stream now on HBO Max.<\/p>\n
We\u2019re joined by three guests. Tiffany Johnson Cole is with us, civil rights and civil litigation attorney in Mobile, Alabama. She is a childhood friend and attorney for Robert Earl Council, who\u2019s known as Kinetik Justice. He\u2019s featured in the film. We interviewed him about 10 years ago. He is so often for \u2014 actually, for years has been held in solitary confinement.<\/p>\n
We\u2019re also joined here in New York by the film\u2019s co-directors, Andrew Jarecki and Charlotte Kaufman. The two also worked together on the HBO series The Jinx. Andrew is also the director of the Oscar-nominated documentary Capturing the Friedmans.<\/p>\n
Welcome, all, to Democracy Now! Andrew, let\u2019s begin with you. Lay out The Alabama Solution, what you found when you went to Alabama. And how did you get in these prisons?<\/p>\n
ANDREW JARECKI: Well, it was kind of a miracle that we got access to the prisons, because prisons in the U.S. are kind of black sites. And, you know, we drive by these prisons, and we see a little sign at the side of the road, and we assume, \u201cWell, whatever\u2019s happening back there, if it was really terrible, I guess I\u2019d hear about it.\u201d But because journalists aren\u2019t allowed in these prisons, you actually don\u2019t hear about it.<\/p>\n
So, I was interested in the Alabama prison system, and I took a sort of road trip to just go down there. And I met this prison chaplain, the first Black prison chaplain in the history of Alabama. And he said, \u201cWell, if you\u2019re interested, come in, and, you know, you\u2019ll volunteer.\u201d And I said, \u201cWell, we\u2019re filmmakers. They\u2019re not going to let us in there with cameras.\u201d And he said, \u201cWell, just come in, and we\u2019ll distribute food packages and meet the men, and you\u2019ll see what\u2019s going on.\u201d<\/p>\n
And then, when we went in, we managed to establish a relationship with a warden, who said, \u201cWell, you can come in and film, like, this revival meeting,\u201d which is a very beautiful Christian celebration. And when we went in to film that, which was unusual, the men started whispering to us that there were really terrible things going on that we weren\u2019t allowed to see, and they were curating our visit. And then, eventually, we get sort of nosy, and we get thrown out.<\/p>\n
And it was after that that we discovered that there were sort of a network of men inside who had access to contraband cellphones, and there were these incredible leaders of a nonviolent protest movement who wanted to speak and had been speaking for years about it. And so, that became a sort of a collaboration, in a way, where we were doing an investigation with their help.<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: I mean, this is astounding, Charlotte. Most of what we\u2019re looking at is cellphone footage taken by and narrated by the prisoners themselves. Where do they get the cellphones?<\/p>\n
CHARLOTTE KAUFMAN: Well, many of the cellphones, you know, from our investigation, observation, come in through the guards or \u2014<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: These are contraband cellphones.<\/p>\n
CHARLOTTE KAUFMAN: Yes, yeah. And they\u2019ve been \u2014 they\u2019ve been in the system since around 2013, and the men in our film have been using them as a way to overcome the secrecy that shrouds all prisons in the U.S., since that time. But it is interesting that, you know, a lot of the phones are brought in by guards or with the permission of guards, even though they\u2019re then being used to document and expose things that the guards may be doing or the administration may be doing.<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: So, let\u2019s go to a clip from The Alabama Solution. This is you, our guest, filmmaker Charlotte Kaufman, receiving a call from Melvin Ray, who\u2019s a prisoner, from prison.<\/p>\n
CHARLOTTE KAUFMAN: Would a regular phone call be better?<\/p>\n
MELVIN RAY: No, because it does not allow us to just be ourselves. You know, when we present our stories, we want to present our whole self, not just our voice.<\/p>\n
We\u2019re in these walled-off, secret societies. These are state institutions, but it\u2019s one of the only state institutions that the public or the media has no access to. How can a journalist go into a war zone but can\u2019t go into a prison in the United States of America?<\/p>\n
ON-SCREEN TEXT: The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that wardens can effectively deny journalists access to prisons by citing \u201csafety and security\u201d concerns.<\/p>\n
MELVIN RAY: But I can witness a murder. We could be all sitting here and witness a murder. And the media can\u2019t even come onto state property.<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: That\u2019s, again, a clip from the Oscar-nominated Alabama Solution. Andrew Jarecki, what you show with these films, I mean, you have this prisoner saying, \u201cI could witness a murder. Journalists cannot come in.\u201d It is astounding to think about this. They can go to war, but they can\u2019t come into prisons run by the U.S. government.<\/p>\n
ANDREW JARECKI: Well, there\u2019s no question that the \u2014\u00a0you know, any authoritarian administration does not want you to see what\u2019s going on inside. That\u2019s one of the reasons why Alex Pretti got killed \u2014\u00a0right? \u2014\u00a0is because he was using a cellphone, which they then described as a weapon. So, when you have a secretive system, they can\u2019t really continue to do what they\u2019re doing if there\u2019s enough public pressure, which is one of the reasons why Alabama is so anxious about this film. The governor didn\u2019t come out and say anything about it for around a year, and then, when the film got nominated, she immediately came out with a statement sort of discrediting the film and saying, actually, she\u2019s been the best governor, running the best \u2014\u00a0you know, best effort to try to improve prisons of any governor in the history of Alabama. Interesting distinction.<\/p>\n
CHARLOTTE KAUFMAN: But I would also say it\u2019s not just Alabama. It\u2019s all across the country. We spend $80 billion a year on prisons and jails and incarcerate 2 million people, and yet the public\u2019s not allowed to see in and evaluate whether it is \u2014\u00a0the system is fulfilling its mandate. And so, I think what Melvin is trying to tell us is, you know, we should be demanding transparency and evaluating whether these systems are actually serving us or causing great harm.<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: I want to go to another clip from The Alabama Solution. The clip begins with text messages from a prisoner named Melvin Ray writing, \u201cI have some information for you. \u2026 Word is an inmate got beaten real bad at Donaldson Prison \u2026 Sent to UAB Hospital ICU.\u201d Melvin said the man\u2019s name was Steven Davis.<\/p>\n
ANDREW JARECKI: We\u2019re looking for Steven Davis. We think he\u2019s in the ICU.<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: We\u2019re looking in the hospital right now. Someone has a cellphone. And the elevator doors open, and they\u2019re going down the hallway. They\u2019re clearly looking for the room where Steven is. And then they see a room that says \u201cDavis,\u201d and they look through the curtains. The curtains are closed.<\/p>\n
CHARLOTTE KAUFMAN: It\u2019s a body bag.<\/p>\n
ANDREW JARECKI: It\u2019s a what?<\/p>\n
CHARLOTTE KAUFMAN: It\u2019s a body bag.<\/p>\n
ANDREW JARECKI: That person is not\u2026<\/p>\n
CHARLOTTE KAUFMAN: Not alive.<\/p>\n
NURSE: If you could \u2014 if you could go out to the wait room, or I can help you by call-in, but I\u2019d prefer you not stand in front of the room.<\/p>\n
CHARLOTTE KAUFMAN: OK, sure.<\/p>\n
NURSE: Thanks.<\/p>\n
CHARLOTTE KAUFMAN: We should find his family,<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: Charlotte, that was you saying \u2014\u00a0you were looking through the curtain and saying it\u2019s a body bag?<\/p>\n
CHARLOTTE KAUFMAN: Yes, Andrew and I were both at the hospital that day. And the reason \u2014\u00a0you know, we got this text message that informed us that someone had been beaten and taken to the hospital, and the reason we immediately went to the hospital is because, from our investigation and our research, we knew that often the prison system doesn\u2019t tell family members about what happened, or doesn\u2019t report anything publicly until sometimes weeks later, and that, by that point, the story of what actually occurred can be very muddled. So, in that scene, we\u2019re trying to stay on top of the information and begin an investigation into what we find out is the killing of a man at the hands of a correctional officer.<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: Let\u2019s go to another clip from The Alabama Solution. In this clip, an anonymous prison staff member calls Sandy. She\u2019s the mother of Steven Davis, who was killed when incarcerated at Donaldson Correctional Facility. She wears oxygen, and so she has to take some time to get this call.<\/p>\n
ON-SCREEN TEXT: Later that evening, an unidentified staff member from Donaldson Prison calls Sandy.<\/p>\n
SANDY RAY: Hello? I\u2019m sorry. I\u2019m on oxygen, so I had to take a minute there.<\/p>\n
UNIDENTIFIED PRISON STAFF: OK, I understand.<\/p>\n
SANDY RAY: Who\u2019s this?<\/p>\n
UNIDENTIFIED PRISON STAFF: Well, don\u2019t \u2014\u00a0you know, I\u2019m just \u2014 I know you\u2019re grieving, in mourning, but I just \u2014 I wanted to tell you that your son was beaten to death by an officer. That was a murder. You know, they sweep stuff underneath the rug all the time about this.<\/p>\n
SANDY RAY: I called the warden this afternoon. An hour later, there was a statement on the news that he rushed out of cell with two home-made weapons and attacked them.<\/p>\n
UNIDENTIFIED PRISON STAFF: With a plastic knife. They always come up with something to justify excess brutality and use of force.<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: Andrew Jarecki, we\u2019re watching Sandy, Davis\u2019s mom, Steven Davis\u2019s mom, get this call \u2014\u00a0who is it from? \u2014\u00a0where she\u2019s told her son has been murdered by guards.<\/p>\n
ANDREW JARECKI: Yeah, I mean, we know who the call came from, and we were just being discreet in the film, because it\u2019s very rare to have a whistleblower who\u2019s on the staff at the prison tell somebody the truth of what happened. But I think this is a person who has higher character than a lot of other people who witness things like this in the prison, and he felt compelled to reach out to the mother of somebody who he had learned had been murdered at the hands of corrections officers. So, he was seeing the story that the prison was putting out, which was that Steven had attacked guards, which is absurd, and immediately felt like he had to call the mother and say, \u201cLook, at least you should know this.\u201d<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: I mean, the picture, the photograph \u2014\u00a0and, Charlotte, you can talk about this photograph they have of Steven Davis\u2019s head. Who took it? How horrifying it is.<\/p>\n
CHARLOTTE KAUFMAN: Yeah. So, Steven\u2019s brother Brandon took a photo when, as he explains, the guards were out back sleeping at the hospital, because the \u2014 while Steven was in ICU, the prison officials made sure there was a presence at the hospital to let the family know and to let Steven know, just in case he woke up, that they were watching. And they told Sandy and Steven\u2019s brother, \u201cYou cannot come into the room with Steven.\u201d But while they were \u2014\u00a0the guards were away, Steven\u2019s brother snuck a photo. And I\u2019ll also say we met Steven\u2019s dad, as well. And the dad, when we were initially going to speak to the dad, he said, \u201cAre you from the news? Because the prison told us that if we speak to the news, they won\u2019t give us back the body.\u201d So, this idea of sort of hiding what\u2019s happening in the prisons, and even hiding bodies, you know, is very striking.<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: You talk about the staff at the hospital. Let\u2019s go to another clip of The Alabama Solution, where we hear from former correctional officers Stacy George and Quante Cockrell. The clip ends with the prisoners themselves.<\/p>\n
STACY GEORGE: Correctional officers should be the most reliable, trustworthy. You really want people that will do the right thing when nobody\u2019s watching. But in Alabama, you don\u2019t have that.<\/p>\n
QUANTE COCKRELL: Every day I thought I shouldn\u2019t be participating in this. There\u2019s just so much stuff happening in there. So now there\u2019s a lot of officers leaving.<\/p>\n
STACY GEORGE: Sometimes we have one officer for 200, 300 inmates. With the low staffing and the mandatory overtime, you\u2019ve got officers that look like zombies.<\/p>\n
PRISONER 1: Look at this man in the cube, asleep.<\/p>\n
PRISONER 2: That\u2019s the cube. Ain\u2019t no police in the cube. None. Ain\u2019t no police in the dorm, nowhere in the dorm.<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: Another clip from The Alabama Solution. I want to bring in our third guest, Tiffany Johnson Cole. Tiffany, you are a civil rights and civil litigation attorney. You\u2019re also a childhood friend and attorney for Robert Earl Council, also known as Kinetik justice. We spoke to him 10 years ago, and we\u2019ll get to him in a minute. But talk about the lawsuit that you have brought.<\/p>\n
TIFFANY JOHNSON COLE: Most recently \u2014\u00a0well, we had an initial lawsuit in 2021, wherein Robert Earl was assaulted by guards. And we since settled a portion of that lawsuit against the guards, and actually went to a jury trial and won in Jefferson County against the medical provider. The most recent lawsuit, though, deals \u2014 is a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction that deals with the transfer of Robert Earl, Raoul and Melvin between January 12th and 13th to the L dorm, which is located at Kilby, which is considered a highly restrictive area, often associated with intimidation. They were transferred between January 12th and 13th for what we believe was protected speech by people they associate with on the outside. And so, that lawsuit is still pending.<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: I want to go to the backdrop of the Free Alabama Movement, Andrew, going back 10 years to this strike that they led across the state. In fact, it went beyond that.<\/p>\n
ANDREW JARECKI: Well, I think it\u2019s most notable that these men have always observed peaceful protest movements, whether that\u2019s a labor stoppage, because, you know, that can be powerful. Alabama has $450 million a year in unpaid labor that they benefit from. So, if the men undertake a work stoppage, it\u2019s a real threat to the way the system \u2014<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: You mean they\u2019re sort of running the prison. I mean, they\u2019re being directed, but\u2026<\/p>\n
ANDREW JARECKI: Yes, but way beyond that. I think the average person thinks, \u201cOK, well, somebody is in prison. Maybe they\u2019re supposed to sweep up, or they\u2019re supposed to serve a meal or something.\u201d I think what shocks people is that they\u2019re farmed out, not just to the governor\u2019s mansion. They work on road crews. They work on construction for the state. And beyond that, they\u2019re leased out to McDonald\u2019s and Burger King and the Hyundai parts company and the Budweiser distributorship. So it really is very \u2014\u00a0<\/p>\n
AMY GOODMAN: And how much are they paid?<\/p>\n
ANDREW JARECKI: Well, in the film, you see one of the people who works in sanitation is being paid $2 a day. And they\u2019re charging the state of Alabama \u2014 the Department of Corrections is charging, you know, $10 or more per hour for these people. So it\u2019s a very, very lucrative thing. And the other thing the men will do sometimes is go on hunger strike. And so, it\u2019s always peaceful, and yet the way the state deals with it is always through violence.<\/p>\n